[COLUMN] Bush's Iraq plan is pure lunacy

Lucente,

How do you think this war should be handled? Your column follows little logic and is full of liberal rhetoric...."bombing Arab countries back to the Stone Age," "regime change,".....etc.. According to your logic, since the polls show that the war is unpopular, we ought to put our tails between our legs and leave. I know you claim to be a Libertarian, and you pride yourself in your keen intellect, open mindedness, and reasoning powers, so why don't you put it to use rather than using Bush for pen fodder like every other liberal in the media.

Lucente—this might be “your blog” but it is a part of the Lima News and they need to step up and take some responsibility for your anti-American and cowardly comments.

Few people disagree that we need to leave Iraq—including me—but it is HOW we leave that is important. If we leave it a mess as you suggest or worse yet never have gone there as you have suggested, even a liberal dope-smoking, anti-social paranoid blogger would be feeling the effects of that decision now here in the USA.

The military and Rumsfeld did their job—they won the war in 100 days, even by having to CARRY your type of soldier in combat. The FAILURE came and is still being caused by our STATE DEPARTMENT based on the original decisions made to punish ALL Baath Party members—a horrendously Lucente-type of bad thinking and decision-making.

If you listened to President Bush’s speech, he CORRECTED that major error in politics and he also made it very clear to the Iraqi government that the days of Americans fighting for them is ending—while they go about killing each other as they have been doing in the Mideast for 10,000 years!!!

Opening Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico for oil would make us independent of Mideast oil—but your anti-American (liberal/Libertarian) friends are against that also!

You and the liberal democrats in congress are doing the exact same thing your elders did to us during the Vietnam War—you are aiding and abetting the ENEMY, which gives support to the ENEMY and they end up KILLING more of those American troops you CLAIM to be so fond of.

Luncete—you dishonor our dead and insult true patriots.

Lucente!

Look at the history of your liberal leaders!

Johnson--sucked us deep into the Vietnam War and then abandoned the troops to die because he had achieved his personal political objective—while people like Jane Fonda, who still lives in this nation that was defended by much better people than her—supported those killing Americans.

We got out of Vietnam through our worst REPUBLICAN president.

Carter—sucked us into the Iranian Embassy fiasco that lasted more than a year. When he didn’t have the courage to follow through on a rescue attempt more than 10,000 people were murdered, of course NOT being Americans liberals don’t count them.

We got out of that mess though our BEST REPUBLICAN president.

Clinton—showed liberals cowardly resolve when they dragged dead naked AMERICAN RANGERS through the streets of Mogadishu—he ran. (We were sucked into that mess by liberals whining for us to do "something!"

The results? Every wannabe terrorist decided we were WEAK and they bombed our embassies, attacked our ships in harbor and attacked US soil!

President Bush decided to take the terrorist war to the enemy and fight on THEIR soil. Only a traitor, coward and absolute idiot would want that war fought on American soil!

Support our President and trust that he and his administration will get us out of this mess with the fewest LONG TERM losses for America.

Cowards—Lucente—die a thousand deaths—heroes die but one.

Tom, no matter what your opinion is on this war or anything else, it is YOUR right as an American to say it-- ESPECIALLY on YOUR own blog. I don't know how you maintain the patience for Donald Zlotnik and his continuously insulting and degrading replies to you. I would have banned him from this site a long time ago, not to supress his expression of his own opinions, but because he is just a bully who cannot debate legitimately without calling you and anyone who disagrees with him the most vile and insulting names he can come up with. I for one wish that everytime he says he's leaving here and not coming back...he'd keep his damn promise.

"Put our tails between our legs and leave"...that's one of the most overused phrases that people who are pro-Iraq War like to use against people who say that we need to get out of there. No matter what our reasons are for leaving Iraq, these people are going to call it cowardly unless we've accomplished complete success. The problem with that thinking is that there is no spelled out statement of what exactly "complete success" would entail. As Tom mentioned, the goal used to be "regime change"... we met that goal, but we're still there and sending even more troops in. Bush's goals change and he sets the bar higher everytime we meet the former goal.

Believe it or not, when this war started, even I supported it. I fell victim to the sympathy begging people like Pat Robertson and everyone who drowned us with stories of Sadam's torture of his people. My heart broke for all the innocent men, women and children of that country who were being tortured and murdered under his rule. Over time however, what I have realized (as have SO many other Americans who formerly supported the war) is that, even though Iraqis were living a way of life that we find outrageous, they do NOT want the way of life WE have forced upon them. But that's what we've been trying to do. We go in, bomb their homes, kill hundreds of thousands MORE of their innocent men, women and children as we tell them, "we're doing this for your own good." From where they are standing, in the rubble of what used to be their homes, they aren't bowing down to the great almighty America for saving them. They are building up even more resentment and hatred for this country who has somehow become so egotistical that we feel we have the right to poke our noses into eveyone else's business and force them to be like us. Then we all sit here and wonder what happened the next time there is a major terrorist attack on our people... and it WILL happen, even if this war ends "successfully"(by Bush's standards)... the terrorists will not stop, new ones are breeding every single day. And we, are adding fuel to the fires of everyone who already hated usm, as well as adding more people of our former allies to the list every day that we continue this farce. Even Zlotnik, who I RARELY agree with, said that they will go about killing each other in the mideast "as they have done for the last 10,000 years." We KNOW that is true, they hate each other over there, they have ALWAYS been killing each other, WE know it, our government knows it.... so WHY are we trying to force them to stop killing each other before we leave? WHY are we sending MORE troops in as a last ditch effort to squelch this warring between those people when we KNOW that as soon as we leave, they're going to start right back at it full force again. WHY should MORE of our American soldiers be offered to them as sacrifices on their altars of hatred when the end result will be the same as it is now.... a country of people killing each other until the end of time. ????? The answer is pretty obvious, Bush has two more years... he wants to go out a "winner", no matter what the cost to this country.

Susan,
How about this one: "Cut and Run." That's a bit overused too, isn't? What is your idea for a course of action? What would your exit strategy be? As for your comment that we have killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, could you validate that statistic? Haven't far more died due to ethnic violence between Sunnis and Shiites? I would love to hear your ideas.

Yes, we are the most powerful Nation on earth. This is why the other Nations hates us so much! Mainly the 3rd world Nations. But, yet there people come to America to enjoy our freedom. Even if is Illegally! I wonder how many of those living in Detroit is ligal! The 3rd world countries is and I do say a big threat to our security.They hate us! (1) For our freedom which is a threat to those in control of there people in these 3rd world countries. (2) Because most of us here in the United State are so called Christians and we support the Jewish Nation and people. The 3rd World people hates both Christians and Jews. Which the 3 rd world in mainly made up of Muslisms. This War is not creating more Terrorist. They would come after us more if we didn't stand up to these 3rd World terrorist. They come form the 3rd World countries. Increase Terrorism! What do you mean? Have I missed the News or something? Have we had another Terrorist Attack on our Soil since 9-11-01? Did I miss the News reports! Oh! another thing! After reading some other Blogs. I think I see were the Nation Guards are coming from about this War. Because it seems to be only the Nation Guard so called Military people that is really cring about the War! I see now why you all joined th National Guard instead of the regualar Army. Just like you all accussed Bush during the Vietnam War. You all wanted the praise of serving you country but, not go to a WAr! I don't want to afend anyone by saying my true thoughts about this. Could we really trust the Nation Guards if the United States was attacked here on our Homeland? Are the National Guards really train for defense? I am asking this because of your all attude toward War. Is this any War? Are we really safe with you all? I am sorry if I sound disrespectful to the Guards. But, this is what I am getting out of the National Guards Troops with there complaning about the War on Terrorism including Iraq!

Yes, KD, "cut and run" is another overused term.

My idea for a course of action? Simple, get the hell out of Iraq. Not that hard to understand. Should've done it a LONG time ago.

Can I validate the statistic of "hundreds of thousands of Iraqis" ? No, of course not, nobody can. But we do know it is well into the thousands. And does it matter if it is 10,000 or 100,000? We've still bombed a hell of a lot of innocent women and children who did not deserve to die... but hey, it's ok right?... I mean, they're just "casualties of war."

Have "far more died due to ethnic violence between Sunnis and Shiites?" Of course! Does that make all the innocent lives we've taken suddenly not count? That merely proves my point that they have been killing each other over there for thousands of years and will continue to do so... there is no point in sending OUR troops in there to make them stop something that is so ingrained into their entire culture and history that there is no way for us to put an end to it.

My question is... when Bush finally declares success (I don't think he ever will) and our troops are finally brought home. What will our fearless leaders do when the minute our last plane lifts off from Iraq, the people there start killing each other again? Are they going to turn our troops around and send them back again? Are we just going to ignore it and let them go on fighting as they always have... and if we can do that...then why aren't we doing that now?

Why did Roosevelt(D) go to war with Europe? Hitler didn't invade us?

Why did Truman(D) go to war with N. Korea, which didn't attack us?

Why did Clinton(D) go to war with Kosovo, who didn't attack us?

Go for it Maj. Zlotnik: Keep speaking up. I agree with you on you Comments. Back during the Viet Nam War us Consertives kept quit! And look where it got us. Now these other Countries think they can just run all orve us. Since the Viet Nam War this has been happing to us. These young Kids don't no what really happened back during the Viet Nam War and the put down you all got when you all came home. I do because my Husband was one of the Viet Nam Troops that got the put down. Even right here in Lima, Ohio when he got home. My Son was even made fun when he wore his Dads old Marine Corp Utitly Cover to a little league baseball game right here at one of our area township schools, back in the late 80's early 90's. I see where you are coming from. And to Susan; You and Tom both would love to shut us Consertive up. Sorry we are here to stay! We didn't speak out back in the 60's during the Viet Nam War. But, we have growed up and now we are speaking out even more ane stronger. We are here to stay! Even if we are refused to say what we think on these liberal Blogs. That will not Shut us up! There!

Marine mom, I would never tell you to "shut up". You have as much right to your opinion as I or anyone else does. And I've told you so on the other forum. Zlotnik is another story. He cannot state his opinion without deliberately and personally insulting anyone who disagrees with him. I will continue to stand up to anyone with that bullying attitude. You might agree with him and support him now...but you weren't around the last time we did rounds with him. Just wait, one of these days either here or on the Lima News forum, you will actually disagree with him on something and then you will see why he is so disrespected everywhere he goes.

By the way, I hope you will read my reply to you on the Lima News forum, correcting your misunderstanding about the National Guard troops. You've misunderstood some important issues and now you're judging our wonderful National Guard and Reservists because of it.

Susan--it's quite simple--a COWARD is a COWARD and the worst kind are those wearing a military uniform--who refuse to fight and nip at the heels of thsoe still fighting.

A traitor is one who acts and speaks out against their nation while their nation is at war.

An IDOIT is one who lacks a high level of intelligence, yet tries to act like SHE (Susan) knows everything about everything as SHE (Susan) hides behind her computer.

I am quite sure if you step out into the open we will all see you are a wannabe who has accomplished little in her life.

This blog is OPEN to all--that's what blogs are for. To disagree with the owner of a blog is none of the above--but you Susan reflect the true dealings of a liberal--if someone disagrees with your absolutely flawed thinking--BAN them!

I do not like you Susan--you are as close to a poorly informed person as one can get. You have never fought in a war--yet you are quick to tell us about war, you have never been in politics--yet you are quick to tell us all about politicians, you have never travelled abroad--yet you are quick to tell us about other cultures--you do NOTHING Susan but pick on better people than yourself from the comfort of your computer.

YOU are dysfunctional Susan and a danger to anyone who listens to your drivel and I can see why you support Lucente.

Lucente's "blogs" cannot go unchallenged--I call him out for what he is. He is a bitter National Guard crybaby taking cheap shots--like you do--at better people than himself.

If you got a bitch Susan about what I have WRITTEN--attack that.

The feeling is mutual mr.Zlotnik. Funny though... I seem to always be telling people they have a right to their opinion, whether I agree or not. Yea, that sure sounds like I'm everything you say I am. You've proven my point, you are a bully. Pure and simple. Anyone who does not agree with you (whether it's me, Tom or anyone else) gets personally insulted and called names. It would be nice if you could just state your opinion on an issue, maybe back it up if you have anything to back it up with and then leave it at that instead of hurling insults and personal attacks at other people for having a different opinion than you.

I'm not surprised at anything you say anymore. I just hope that Lucente doesn't allow you to be abusive to ANYone on this forum anymore. If he doesn't mind you attacking him, that's fine...but I sure wouldn't allow any forum member to verbally abuse another forum member the way you are known to do. I don't have any desire for him to "ban" any person (including you) for stating their opinion whether I agree or not. It's the personal, verbal ABUSE that you are famous for that has no place here and makes you worthy of being banned if you continue. It's really not a very manly way to debate an argument.

By the way... I see your time spent in your wonderfully peaceful serene heavenly escape from the bad people didn't do anything to help your hateful attitude. Maybe you should've spent a little more time there.

"Bush has, throughout his presidency, sent troops willy-nilly around the globe without a solid plan or an exit strategy. That is not, as some conservative pundits like to say, a sign of leadership. That is a sign of insanity. If you stick your hand in hot water for five seconds and get burned, only an idiot would decide to stick his or her hand in the water for 10 more seconds hoping for a different outcome."
True, unless it's al-Maliki's hand which may or may not be able to control the heat that's in that water also.

Logic leads me to believe that adding more troops will not be the best solution, unless the Iraqi's are willing / able to hold up their end and step up in a very short amount of time.

This would appear to me to be a last ditch effort to salvage things, and by having the onus on the Iraqi government, it also allows us an honorable withdrawl if they fail to keep their end of the plan.

WOW, Zlotnik! I had NO idea Lucente was a "bitter National Guard crybaby".

Couple questions. To qualify as a bitter National Guard crybaby:

Does one have to be bitter before deployment, or just after being re-deployed over and over again like a Duncan Yo-Yo?

What's the minimum height requirement a crybaby has to be to get in? He really looks much taller in the picture.

I miss your posts so.

Dune, you gave me a much needed smile..thanks

Glad to hear it.
"Z" and I have a great rapport.

First of all, If anybody is in the servcing, Army, Airforce, Navy, Marines, National Guard, Coast Guard and reserves etc. to me they are serving this country PERIOD!!!!!!!!!

Second, Just food for thought, When 9/11 happened,I wanted us to go and kick the shit out of Osomin and all of the associated and if you remember a lot of the public wanted this to. I did not care if women and children were involved because of what happened to us.
Now, we have been in Irag for a few years, bombing and yes innocent women and children are being killed, Now how do they feel towards us? I would have to say the same way we felt when 9/11 happened, Like I said this is food for thought.

Third, Can anyone recall why we are over there, is it because Irag had connections to terrorists, Saddam not in accordence with UN resolutions in regards to WMD or He did he just need to be removed. Can someone actually refreash my memory. If it was to get Saddam out of Irag, well mission accomplished, lets the men and women come home!

Next I would like to say that I am not a democrate, republican, independent or what ever.

Finally, Mr. Zoltnik you are intelligent man, I have asked for help to clarify things with sex offenders on the other forums because you have more knowledge of some things then I do, and I repect you for that, but the name calling and bashing of people because of there views has to stop. Granted we all have different views, I do not always agree with what I read on here, I get aggravated, but I do not call people names and bash them for there different view.

Sorry about typos in previous post, some of you have seen my posts in the past and my mind works faster then fingers.

Susan, even though I so agree with Zoltnik. I see what you mean about his attude. Alot of the older Veterians have a bad attude toward things. I have been working with them along with the now 2007 troops for the pass 4 years. And there is a big differnts in there attudes from the old and new Military troops. I do feel sorry for the old Veterains. Most of them were drafted. And really didn't want to go. So I guess I have just learned to over look what they say now. My family goes back to WW2 both parents. Mom and Dad serving. My Husband Viet Nam and now my Son the War on Terror! So whatever the Milatery people say I just over look it. And consider the sorce!

Marine Mom, I believe what you are saying is very accurate. And, even though you and I disagree on a few things here and there (here and on the forums) it's OK, you have the right to any opinions you want. Thank you for being respectful when we disagree.

"Third, Can anyone recall why we are over there, is it because Irag had connections to terrorists, Saddam not in accordence with UN resolutions in regards to WMD or He did he just need to be removed. Can someone actually refreash my memory."

Which revision would you like?

1. Imminent threat from WMD?
2. Liberate the Iraqi's from their
despot leader?
3. Fight the terrorists over there so we
don't have to fight them overe here?
4. Keep the terrorists from getting the
oil and financing terrorism with it?
(I guess the same way other Arab
countries do it)

I have to confess to you all! I had the believe that we went to Iraq to get Saddam out of power and punsh him for what he did to his countrymen and women and childern in the Northern part of the his country. And now I feel the mission has been done now that Saddam is dead. And it is time we have our Troops come home. But, like Viet Nam, We can't just leave Iraq. We can't cut and run. We have to somehow make sure that Iraq can run there own govenment and not be taken over by another Dictator or another country. No we haven't taken the country over. We let The South Viet Nam people down are we going to leave the Iraqi people down, too. Because of the cut and run thing we did in Viet Nam is why all of these other countries think they can take us on with Terrorism now. Like I said, I lived back during the Viet Nam era That war was a mistake and to this Day I still don't know why we went to Viet Nam. Those people was not bothering us either. But, it was Johnson that sent us there. A Democrate! We can't let these Troops of 2007 come home from Iraq like the Troops of Viet Nam did. No matter how much we disagree with the big shots in DC. I have seen what dishoner can do to troops. And to a country. I have lived with it for the pass 40 years. We can't cut and run form Iraq no matter what! Please don't put thses Troops through what there Fathers went through with Viet Nam? That is the reason I feel the way I do. As a Military Mom! I have seen the Fashbacks from the Viet Nam Veterian that is very close to me. And I have seen how he was treated. We went into a movey right here in Lima in 1968 and my Husband had something on that he had just got home from Viet Nam and he was asked to leave the Theater. Yes, right here in Lima. The American Mall one! I don't think it is there anymore now. But, we haven't forgotten what happened there. And I know these poor Troops are going to have problems too. Matter of fact. The thing that the 2007 troops are facing now is. They are sent to Iraq and when they get home the find out that there Wife or girlfriends Cheated on them. My Son is not the only one that this has happened to. It happened to a nighbor grandson. He was only married a few months before he left. Oh, by the way. He was a National Guardsman. Again, we can't let the troops come home in defeat like Viet Nam! We lost the Viet Nam War! We can't lost Iraq. Or we are done as a Nation. I know alot of you will agree with me. But, I lived through losing one War! And seen what it has done to this country and to some of its great men and women. I will go along with anyone that has a good idea how to get out of Iraq with Honer with out cut and running and losing the War! Be it whoever! But, I haven't heard of any good plans from anyone! Even from the people that has been putting down Bush. Can they come up with any better plan besides Cut and Running? I would like for the Troops to come home probly more than anyone else as a Military Mom. It us Military Families that our Kids is being sent. So if anyone want the Iraq War to end it is us the most. Just because we support the War don't mean we are War lovers. We want our Kids to come home with Honor not defeat! Like Viet Nam! Thank You!

Marine mom, I'm glad you posted that. I understand more now of where you are coming from than I did before. I know that many of the soldiers were treated badly when they returned from Vietnam... but I just can't imagine the mindset of the people who did that, like the person who asked your husband to leave the movie theater. That just has me completely at a loss. I guess because it's so hard for me to imagine people being that way back then (I was just a baby, don't remember it myself) I can't imagine our troops of today coming home to that sort of treatment. I'm sorry for both your husband and your son...they both got screwed over.

First: Lucente’s rants against the President of the United States while this nation has troops in harm’s way IS anti-American.

Second: The way he has attacked his commander-in-chief is cowardly for a soldier.

Third: I do not like Susan “Self-Proclaimed Queen of the Lima News Webpage.”

Fourth: As far as “name-calling” goes, from my experiences, a coward hates being called a coward; a liberal hates being labeled a liberal and a bitch hates being identified as a bitch. Druggies don’t care what you call them as long as they can have a steady supply of the drug of their choice.

Please note in the “name-calling” area, Lucente has called the President of the United States much worse things than I have called him. My calling Susan dysfunctional probably hurts her feelings because she doesn’t know what it means—but calling me a hateful old man—is also name calling—or do we pick only on those who disagree with us and have them banned? But if you do that—then this pathetic blog would die like the other site Susan is on has done.

Fifth: A “National Guard Crybaby” is one who signs up for the Guard because of the educational benefits or additional money and never even thought THEY would have to end up serving in an actual WAR!. During the Vietnam War they signed up to hide from the war. Most “National Guard Crybabies” come from support units—few from combat arms.

And yes—one must serve more than one turn at bat if so called if their job is to defend the USA. Before you ask—a military person does NOT get to pick and chose their wars, nor do they have any say in how long the war will last. The military CAN win the war quickly—but then again they work for CIVILIANS.

It should be noted too that the MAJOR military disasters in Iraq were National Guard unites—Abu-Grabi (sp) for example. Many National Guard Units are very poorly trained and even worse led—but that is another topic.

If you read my initial posts on this blog—they were in opposition to Lucente’s anti-American rants. As a combat veteran and as an American patriot, I am personally tired of having to listen to worthless people attack the very fabric that has made America great and then quickly hid behind “The Constitution”—a document that can be interpreted a thousand different ways.

Maybe you haven’t figured it out yet—Lucente is NOT writing to inform us—but to take revenge for having to have been forced to serve his country!

If you got a bitch Susan about what I have WRITTEN--attack that.

The same could be said of you, Mr. Z. I happen to agree with you about Iraq. But, as a person, you are a disgusting piece of work, especially for someone in the Human Service field.

I am a conservative who disagrees with Lucente, too. He has taken the Libertarian view, which doesn't make him a whiney baby. It appears that you are the whiney baby whenever someone disagrees with you...about anything. Like a toddler, you resort to name calling.

And how do you know what is in Lucente's heart? Lucente's opinion is just that, an opinion. As far as him informing us, anyone is free to do the research and inform themselves. You don't belong on a blog. Your attitude and demeanor don't fit in with the adults.

Dunedweller-Thanks I think I will go with Version #1.

Marine Mom-I do not believe that the troops will be treated like the Viet Nam vets when they come home. It is differenct era, times of changed and because to many memories of what happened to the Viet Nam Vets.

Mr. Zlotnik-" "

Z, What Branch of the Military did you serve in? I know back when you was in the Military there was a lot of name calling right within the Military itself.Mainly by you Officers to the lower Troops back in the 60's But, time has changed even in the Military. As I have told you before! The days of name calling is over with. Ether in the Military or out here in Civalan life. People can disagree without getting nasty. This is what you and others fought for. Freedom to disagree on ideas without being arrested etc. This is what make America a great country. The thing is not for all of us to stand behind the Troops of 2007 rather we agree with the War and The President or not! We can't let these Troops go through the same bashing and put down that you all got after Viet Nam. And yes I am seeing the samething starting to happen with these troops. And I am beginning to see that the Iraq War is becoming another Viet Nam. And I really don't want to see that either. Our Troops do need to come Home. But, with Honor! We just can't cut and run like we did in Viet Nam. And yes! Like Viet Nam from what my Husband has stated to me. Our TRoops don't know who the enemay is in Iraq just like you all didn't really know who the bad people was in Viet Nam. From what my Husband have said, You all couldn't even trust the Childern in Viet Nam either. It was either them or you all! Self defense! And this is what I am seeing and hearing about Iraq! The Military can't even trust the childern there either! I am sorry it is a shame! We do need to get out and come home. But, with Honor and some kind of a Win! And I do want to say to you Veterains! You all need to really be the ones to Support the troops of 2007. I am very disappointed in you all! I have been working with the Veterans for the pass 4 years. And all I have seen is fighting among your all selfs. Over who is getting the most Pension or who is the Head of an Veterian Organization. No wonder the Veterians Organization is dieing out and losing members. These young 2007 troops don't want to joined a bunch of old Men setting around a Bar and cring over the pass War experices. Or fighting over who had it the worst in the Military! My Husband will not even join any of the Veteraians Organizations because of this. I appraite what you old Veterians have done! But, times have changed and this is 2007. Not 1960. It time to move on and support the troops of 2007. And somehow pray and hope that these TRoops can come home with Honor unlike what happened with Viet Nam. I have lived around you all Viet Nam Vets for the pass 40 years. I have seen what has happened to you all for the pass years. But, hay, there is no need for name calling anymore! You are only hurting the name of the Military and the Veterians by what you are doing by name calling. Some people don't think much of us anyhow and you are not helping them to change there minds. Also, I do agree with you that during Viet Nam there was alot of Men that joined the National Guard just to get out going to Viet Nam. But, remember President also Joined the National Guard too. Why did he join instead of going into the main Army! And yes I am a Bush peson. So I am not saying this just to put him down. From one Military Family to an Veterian. Please back off on the name calling! I don't agree with Lucenti either. Or some of the others on this Website. But you need to realize how old we are. Most of these people wasn't even born yet or were just babies during the Viet Nam War. And they don't understand were we are coming from! We lived during the Cold War and the Threat of a Bomb attack. We lived durning the Viet Nam time. It is just all History to these young Adults. And anymore I don't trust the History Books. We are history. We have lived it! Name calling only makes our Generation look bad! Move on and come up to the year 2007. Thank You!

DZ,
Strikes me that you are at least as"unAmerican" as the folks you accuse!

Close-mindedness and tight-assed intolorance are NOT signs of intelligence! In fact they do more damage to your arguements than they do to the folks you attack!

Benton, I hope you are right. That is the problem there is still alot of memories from the Viet Nam era. I am just seeing the same attude from people that I saw back during the 1960's during the Viet Nam War, With this War on Iraq! And that is what bothers me! While all of the Anti-War protest was going on back during the 60's. As a Christian Conservitive I was taught that we could not get involved back then. By our so called Great Generation. The Chritian WW 2 Generation. This included my own Parents! I was just out of High School going to College in the late 60's. Here I was seeing all the protest on the TV back then while now my Husband was in Viet Nam fighting he spent 13 months over there 67-68. And I could not stick up for him or any of the Troops back then. Because we were Holier then thow back then as Christian Conservitive. Now we are the Right Wing Evengalcal Conservitives. And we are speaking up. The Viet Nam War was a terriable War! And it was a useless one! I don't want to see the War on Terrior become another Viet Nam! I still say this is Why other countries think they can come after the United States. Because they think we will turn and Run like we did in Viet Nam! And if we Turn and Run Now again! This country has had it! This War on Terrior started way back years ago. Not just since 9-11. It is just that noone did anything about the U S being picked on before 9-11. And these other countries kept on picking on the U.S. in other countries until 9-11. Look back in 93 when the WTC was bombed the first time. Noone did anything about that! So the Terrorist came back and finished the Job on 9-11-01. The United States have got to stick up to all of these Countries and let them know we will not put up with there Bulling Us. I am afriad for my Son and Grandchildern. What kind of World will we leave them? Or what kind of a Country will we leave them? Will we leave them a still Free Country or one that Runs from eveything and will be pick on by Bully Countries. I am not just talking about Iraq now! I am talking about this World War on Terror! This War is bigger than just Iraq! We have troops all over the World that I think people have forgotten about! We need to stand together as a Nation on the War on Terror as a World War. Not just one part of the War. Rather or not Iraq had anything to do with the War on Terror or not that is not improtant now. As a Nation we have to show the other countries that we will not be Bullied by them. And we have to show the Terriorist we will not put up with there Bulling us as Americans. We have got to become a Nation of "One for all and all for one!" And stand up to these other Nations. Hay, tell them and show them we are not going to Run! And that we do have Brave Young Troops that are willing to give there Lives so that there Childern can be save and Free from Bully Countries of Terror! And to those Troops God Bless Them! I still look for the War to come on our own Soil someday. We are not an Island anymore! I hope not. Us Viet Nam era Genteration in getting up there in years ousselves now. We are becoming the Old Generation. Our Childern will soon be running This Nation. What kind of Nation will it be? Something to think about! At least we have a few young Men and Women that is willing to fight yet for there Country no Matter the reason. God Bless those Troops and keep them safe!

Don,

Since you're so willing to stand up and fight, would you like us to begin the campaign to get you reinstated to active duty? Surely you could do better than calling Tom a coward.

You could go sacrifice yourself in Iraq, since -- you know -- you seem to believe more American death is the only way to justify our strength. Surely you're not so much of a coward as to suggest only people like Tom should sacrifice themselves. Why don't you lead the charge?

I just think it's funny that Zlotnik thinks I've killed off the Lima News forums....I sure must be powerful.... (why didn't somebody tell me it had died out? I wouldn't have kept posting there!)

Donald,

You certainly know how to strike a nerve on a number of levels. Your posts seem...well, just a bit hateful.

What with questioning peoples loyalties and all, and not to mention your recent reference to Tom Lucente as a "irreconcilable, emotionally wrought infant" (Liberal PC version).

Dissent is not subversive Don. It is and has been an American RIGHT since the beginning. It was actually encouraged by some of the very people who helped create “The Constitution - a document that can be interpreted a thousand different ways."

Our founding fathers felt very strongly about this right to voice opposition to Government. So much in fact, it was the first amendment TO the Constitution. "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive."
Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826)

See a problem with it so far?

I'm not exactly sure how you arrive at logical conclusion that criticism of George "W" Bush or his policies is somehow tantemount to treason.

You love to claim the moral high ground of a "American Patriot", though yet seem to espouse virtues commonly associated with a Fascist Dictatorship.

Another veteran and American Patriot had this to say:

“Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionist and rebel men and women who dare to disssent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion.” - General Dwight David Eisenhower

Sorry Major, you're outranked on this one.

Well said, Dune, very very well said.

Thank You Susan.

Benton wrote:
Dunedweller-Thanks I think I will go with Version #1.

Do you still want to stay with WMD in version #1, or wait and see what's behind the curtain for version #5?

The Iraqi's most likely won't be giving us any lovely parting gifts any time soon either.

The obvious problem with the first version Benton is/was there wasn't any.

Well OK, if you count some old stuff about as potent as a 20 year old can of Raid, which was about the age of what little was found.

Once that dog didn't hunt, we were there to liberate the oppressed people of Iraq...Until they shot at us.

But of course those were the "dead enders". Sunni Saddam loyalists. Except when they came from other countries also, and they weren't all Sunni.

Since they were from all over the region and not all "dead enders", they became terrorists.

Then...we HAD to fight them there so we didn't have to fight them here, since everyone knows terrorists are just like angry killer bees and once you whack the hive, they'll follow you everywhere.

They are obviously pretty oil savvy too since President Bush said if we leave, THEY will control the oil, and pump and sell it to finance terrorism. Oddly enough, if that WERE to happen I guess those huge oil refineries must be impervious to our planes and missiles.

Sure you don't want to see what's behind curtain #5?

Zlotnik's problem is the same as all the others on active duty who look down on their collective noses at those of us in the National Guard as some sort of unfortunately necessary evil. He only has to review his military history to see that it was Major General (ret) Fred Franks -- an ACTIVE DUTY officer, commander of the Army's Training and Doctrine (TRADOC) command, who would be responsible for seeing that the active component would never again deploy without the reserves. Read "Into The Storm" coauthored with Tom Clancy, if you care to learn why.

As far as being poorly trained, there are more than enough examples of reserve component soldiers doing as well, and in many cases better, than our active duty counterparts. We train to the same standards as do our active duty compadres, not some perceived lesser standard.

As the gunner on an M1 tank in 2000, my armor unit went to Camp Ripley, Minnesota every month from January to June to prepare for Tank Table VIII, the Army's tank crew combat qualification course. That's three days per month for six months. In July that year at annual training, we negotiated the TTVIII course. My crew and one other from my company were the only ones to achieve a distinguished score on the course, scoring 900+ out of 1000 points. All other crews from the battalion scored first-time goes on the course as well. Our evaluators? Active duty tank crew evaluators from the U.S. Army's Armor Center at Fort Knox, Kentucky. We managed to accomplish that all with a little more than 30 days of training. On active duty, they get 90 days to train for the event.

In 2003, I went to Iraq with the 4th Infantry Division. At the time being recently married -- and not knowing my wife was pregnant with our first child -- I packed my bags and got on the plane for my deployment. No whining, no bitching! I knew I had volunteered because nobody forced me to enlist. For my service with 4ID, I was awarded the Bronze Star Medal. I reported directly to an Active Duty NCO and worked almost daily next to the division's commanding general. It was nearly two months before anyone even knew I was a National Guard soldier, not active duty.

My air defense unit recently completed an 18-month mobilization as military police at Fort Bliss, Texas. While there, one of our enlisted soldiers won Garrison Soldier of the Year, a competition against the best soldiers -- Active, Reserve or National Guard -- at the post. Our NCOs won three of the four quarterly competitions. Our soldiers competed in the Army's best of the best MP competition, again along side Active duty and Reservists. Our soldiers took the top four places, and four soldiers from another national guard unit took five through eight. That means the BEST ACTIVE DUTY soldier could've been no better than NINTH!

I'm proud of my accomplishments and those of my fellow soldiers. I know Lucente personally and I am very proud to be serving right along side him.

Tom needs no one to come to his defense, but calling him a "national guard crybaby" couldn't be further from the truth. Tom has served this country proudly, and continues to do so. We are both over 20 years of service (there are no regulations that make any sort of distinction of active duty vs reserve years, so don't even go there). And I know as sure as I write this, because Tom is a loyal and honorable man, if called again to serve this country on an active duty tour, he would pack his bags and get on the bus. He doesn't have to like it. Don't even for one minute think that needs to be a requirement. If it were, at least half the active duty personnel wouldn't go.

By the way, many of the abuses at Abu Ghraib were committed by the 372th MP company, part of the 320th MP battalion, a United States Army RESERVE unit, not the National Guard. Get your facts straight.

Besides, you're living a skewed reality if you think only "poorly trained" National Guard soldiers commit heinous crimes. The military is made up completely of volunteers, and you know as well as I do when left to their own devices, soldiers, airmen, sailors and even marines have been known to do some pretty stupid things. There are even *gasp!* criminals among them. If there weren't, Fort Leavenworth wouldn't be necessary, now would it? Care to look up the ratio of incarcerated active duty to reserve component servicemembers doing their time there?

We are all products of our own experiences.

Susan—a hardcore Lucente bobblehead supports his “right” to protest against the President of the United States in his rants—but denies another person’s “right” to express a counter opinion. Please note a “bobblehead” is one who nods their head in support of whatever their mentor says. That is not name-calling, just expressing oneself using as few words as possible.

MarineMom—be careful. You are falling for Susan’s siren song. She is a superb manipulator to gain allies on her website. Look at ANY thread where someone disagrees with her—she attacks then backs off and manipulates her friends for support. MarineMom—you were right in challenging Lucente. See how Susan maneuvered you away from what Lucente actually SAID to gain your support against me for “name-calling?”

If you are NOT a coward, traitor, dope-smoker or liberal and I call you one—you SHOULD be offended—if you ARE, well…

What Lucente is doing is criminal—especially for one who calls himself a “career” National Guardsman. During my watch—I was an advisor to a state National Guard and All of those units were Far from being combat ready with half the units men unfit for combat during physically. Obviously, there have been changes and improvements.

I come from an era where the “Luncentes” who protested against the war were the “Jane Fondas.” A couple million Vietnam Vets remember her donating blood in Hanoi for the enemy and sitting on an anti-aircraft gun outside of Hanoi.

My era Vets cannot forgive Fonda for what she did to us—even though she was a dumb Hollywood actor and didn’t’ know any better—Lucente claims to be a Desert Storm Vet—he KNOWS better! He knows he is betraying his fellow marines and soldiers whoa re still serving in harm’s way with his rants against the president and he KNOWs he his lying for his own gain.

A few posters here have brought up old topics that have had a liberal spin attacked to them but again one has to wonder how long is the memory of a liberal or an American traitor?

1. BOTH Iraqi Wars had the support of Congress. Today, many of those who voted FOR the war are saying, “Whoops! I changed my mind, I made mistake.” War is NOT a football game! Once war is engaged you MUST win! That is a simple fact. Compromises give you Koreas or Quebecs.
2. Every president in my lifetime has tried to solve the “Mideast Crisis” and they have failed. Bush and his ADVISORS thought by establishing a true democracy in the Mideast that it might change the 10,000 years of mass murdering going on there. It IS a good cause and worth trying.
3. Weapons of Mass Destruction have been played by the liberals since “None were found.” Ask the troops who had to wear chemical weapon gear during the war if THEY didn’t believe Iraq had them! Ask anyone if we FEARED Iraq using WMD against us during BOTH wars—we all believed they had them because they had USED them against their own people. So lets put that one to rest. Iraq HAD WMDs.
4. When Iraq invaded Kuwait—most Americans supported helping the Kuwait people and at the sametime STOP the spread of Saddam’s aggression in the region.
5. Bush said we needed to invade Iraq to stop anymore 911s from happening in the USA—Well? I guess we will find out if he is right when we run from Iraq. I do know he was right so far—there haven’t been anymore 911s since we invaded Iraq.

A few Facts:

1. The people of the Mideast are a very blood-thirsty people. The spread of Islam is based on bloodshed—Jihad. The rulers of Arab countries all know they control their people through fear and bloodshed. That is how they govern From Libya, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Iraq—to Israel. They are nations of brutal theocracies, dictatorships and kingdoms with a few minorities ruling the masses. The idea of a democracy is a good one.
2. The United State military did their job in Iraq! The won TWICE in record time. The problem is with the State Department—not the Defense Department. Ms. Rice has botched this one up and good! Not Bush, Rumsfeld or Cheney—RICE.
Rice and her absolute incompetent professional group of bureaucrats for all political parties have completely blotched the PEACE. Her man, Baker—the first ambassador after the war went AGAINST every military commander and the teachings of that great statesman George Marshall and declared ALL Baath Party members banned from government and employment in Iraq. Even Susan with her extremely limited knowledge on any topic can figure out what would happen if you refuse employment to the best and brightest people of a society; college professors, military, government, etc.
3. The vast majority of the monies being spend “in” Iraq end sup in American hands and keeps thousands of middleclass Americans employed—that is an important point when one whines about the “cost” of the war.
4. Once war is declared it is important that ALL Americans stick together to form a united front against a COMMON enemy until the war is WON. What Lucente and his supporters are doing is aiding and abetting the enemy. They are giving our enemies encouragement to fight harder—just like his ilk did during the Vietnam War. The have the right to speak up BEFORE we go to war and to speak up AFTER the war—but DURING the war they need to shut up—or be called traitors.

I stand corrected on the Abu Grabi fiasco--Thanks for the correction.

MarineMom: You asked who I served with in the military. I was with Special Forces as an enlisted man and then as an officer. I served three tours in Vietnam at two A-Camps and then with MACVSOG-CCN a long rang reconnaissance unit that operated in Laos and North Vietnam during the war. I also served with the 173rd Airborne during the Battle for Dak-To. We had 272 killed and more than 900 evacuated wounded during that fight.

I was also with a recon unit in Laos called DeathWatch during the great Marine fight at Khe Shan, directing B-52 strikes to take the pressure off the Marines trapped inside of the base camp and on surrounding outposts.

As I said before we are all creatures of our own experiences. Try living with having to gather our dead who had been laying in a tropical jungle for three days and as you try lifting the body into a body bag the bloated mid-region bursts and releases gases. Or search the battlefield for body parts putting five legs and three arms in one body bag…you get the picture—and then return to a base area and see Jane Fonda’s picture heading a newspaper donating blood to the enemy and calling America the aggressor or pictures of our college kids “protesting” the war—according to their Constitutional rights.

Lucente is doing the same thing—only a bit more subtle.

I’ll state it a bit more simple: Lucente does have the RIGHT to write drivel about the President of the United States as a journalist and citizen—but—is it the RIGHT thing to do while we are still involved in a conflict?

I know calling Lucente out for doing it is the RIGHT thing to do.

I am accused of writing “hateful remarks” on this blog—do you really believe what Lucente has written is NOT hateful? That is a typical liberal response to criticism—attack the messenger and not the message.

Brown—Great post about you and your National Guard training! I am glad the standards have greatly improved over the years in your training. But what does that have to do with Lucente writing trash about the president? Don’t confuse service with treason. Benedict Arnold was a great American soldier—until—he committed treason.

I assume because this is Lucente’s blog, it is filled with his supporters and I would EXPECT Ron to support him—they both work for a libertarian newspaper.

Ron: I volunteered to serve during the first Iraqi War but DA told me I was too old. I thought I could sit in one of Saddam’s palace sand answer the telephones as good as anyone else and let the young guys do the actual fighting.

During the Second Iraqi War—I WAS too old—but the heart was willing.

The only thing I can DO—is protest American traitors when they write treasonous, quibbling, manipulative articles about their leaders and the United States.

In closing--JUST the poster Lucente started this blog with is OFFENSIVE and is something an ENEMY of the United States would do to discredit and ridicule Americans.

Don, You need to stop calling people names. That is not going to get you anywhere on getting your point across. Everyone has a right to the believes and to speak out on what they believe. But, name calling is not going to get anything done. I do come from the same era you do! To this day I can't stand Jane Fonda either. (Hanoi Jane) as she was called back then. Just like I don't have very much respect for John Kerry either. And because of some of the political views of some of the 2007 Hollywood Stars I turn them off now too. This is one reason I don't watch the View! Or some of the other popular talk show on TV. But, we all can disagree with more respect of each other. Just because we may disagree on a few subjects don't mean that we maybe couldn't be friends if we really knew each other. I feel for the Viet Nam Veterians, but the best thing all of you Veterians can do is to move on. Sure you will never forget about your War experinces! And what happened back then because you lived it. It is not History to you like it is to these young Adults now. I will alway remember the protests that I saw everyday back then on the News of the Anti-War groups. They were on everyday back then while you all was over in Nam. At least my Husband was over there at the time. That was then and this is now. My main concern is now! I don't want to see History repeating itself! Even though I have been a Bush supported for the pass 8 years. And I do see where he is coming from. I see another Viet Nam comeing if it is not already here with Iraq. The difference is it is not just Iraq. It is all over the world. I have to agree with Newt Gengrich I believe we are in WW3. And the main thing is now to no matter what is to support our 2007 Troops. This War started 40 years ago. Not just since Bush came in office. I have said this before and I am not going to repeat myself again. Just please stop calling the ones we disagree with names. It only make the rest of us Right Wingers look bad too. Thank You!

Lucente’s “Light of Liberty” blog is a thinly veiled libertarian agenda and has little to do with liberty and a lot to do with anarchy.

In the past year—EVERY opportunity Lucente has had to attack the president and his Iraq policy—he has—using liberal-based half-truths and very twisted liberal-based media reports.

We should be asking—what is BEST for America—not what is best for ME, or my political party or my racial group or sexual preference—but what is BEST for America.

Clearly—what is best for America is a conservative—pro-American agenda. That policy got us through the Cold War and made America the most productive nation on earth with a HUGE middleclass.

Since the 60s, liberals and now libertarians have been chipping away at everything conservative and where has it gotten us?

First, they attacked the American traditional family that worked for the majority of us—today they scoff at “Leave it to Beaver” type families that stay married and raise their children as a team.

Second, they attacked the public school system and today control it. Today we are among the WORST public school systems in the world and a third of our elementary age boys are on Ritalin or Adderal!

Third, the liberals attacked our military forcing the military to go high-tech and NOT depend on the courage of our individual male soldiers. (I know this is going to bring me criticism—but I can back that up with facts!) A perfect example is the “training exercise” our Air Force had with the Indian Air Force. When the high-tech equipment was EQUAL—the Indians shot down our fighter pilots at a ratio of 9 to 1! Again during the annual tank competitions in Europe where the high-tech in the vehicles is equal to ours—our tankers are beaten soundly by tankers from England and Germany.

Liberals turned our military into a social experiment—and the second another nation gains technical superiority on us we will be speaking their language in our schools. (Hint: Chinese.)

Every industrial area liberals control in our economy and government is a failure from public education, mental health to social services. So why do we even tolerate their rants?

The BEST military is a true draft of males from all levels of our society. The Romans and Greeks proved that point beyond a doubt. There should be no regular army, National Guard or Reserves—Just EQUAL military service by all males—large numbers of women in uniform is a social experiment that has failed. That’s another mess we need to get out of.

America is becoming a nation of “victims” who refuse to accept responsibility for THEIR own actions like the Abused Wives Club on this website, made up of Susan, Buckeye and HappyG who attack anything producing testosterone—or the verterans who smoke three packs of cigarettes a day, drink a quart of bourbon a day, smoke a pound of marijuana a week and whine because they have come down with cancer and want to blame it on “Agent Orange.”

If we want to continue being a free people—we need to wake up before it is too late.

I agree with the Major. I think that Tom Lucente should use the power of his position to not be so degrading of people for his own narcistic needs. Our President needs the support of the people to now do what is needed and right. I also agree with the Major that Susan is nothing more than a bobblehead. Susan likes to attack from the safety of her( I think it's a she), who really knows-- she? operates in darkness-- maybe she? has a different agenda or is ashamed of her? background.
I served in Viet-Nam and I will not watch a movie with Jane (Hanoi) Fonda.

John, for someone I have never met, either in person or on any forum, you sure think you have a right to act like you "know" me. I think you might do well to actually make your assessments of people based on your actual experiences with them rather than reading a few overly long, drawn out, hate filled rantings from someone else and believing it to be gospel truth.

As for my "operating in darkness"... I assume you mean the fact that I don't give out my real name. I see you don't print out your real name either. So what are you actually accusing me of? The internet world can be a dangerous place and I am smart enough to not use my real name or give out personal identifying information that someone (ie, Zlotnik) could use to show up on my front porch or hurt my children. Being a man and a Vietnam vet, you probably wouldn't understand that fear or that feeling that you need to protect yourself and your children. But I take my safety and that of my family very seriously. Or maybe you won't give your full real name because you are actually Zlotnik trying to make it look like you actually have one full fledged supporter here.....hmmm...?

Now, John, since this is the first time I have seen you around here, how about you start talking about your opinions on actual issues and let Zlotnik dig his own grave. There's no need for you to jump on the verbal abuse bandwagon with him, no matter how much you agree with his opinions. You will see that I don't verbally attack anyone regardless of differing opinions...unless I am attacked first. We all have the right to have any opinion about any issue we want. Including Tom's opinions about our president and our government. You might not agree with him (or me, or anyone else) but he still has the right to state his opinion without being personally attacked by Zlotnik, you or anybody else for it. You and Zlotnik are equally entitled to your opinions and Tom has proven what an upstanding true loyal American patriot he is by just allowing people like Zlotnik to come on to his own blog and say the things that he says. If Lucente is truly the ogre that Zlotnik makes him out to be, then I would think he wouldn't have allowed Zlotnik to continue with all his postings. He'd have deleted everything he said and banned him from the site... but no...he is still here. That is the true testament to Tom's belief in our Constitution and the people's freedom of speech. Meanwhile, Zlotnik has done everything he can think of to try to shut up anyone who disagrees with him... everything from vile personal insults, to threats of calling his buddies at the Pentagon to have Lucente court martialed for treason (or whatever it was) JUST because Lucente dared state his own personal opinion on this war and the president. Zlotnik (and his kind) is one of the biggest threats to our freedom because they think it is ok to bully and force people into shutting up and he thinks it's ok to try to have someone arrested for things that one says. Does that sound like a true patriot and defender of this country's Constitution? I don't think so. I think he's living in the wrong country.

Donald E. Zlotnik wrote:
"Brown—Great post about you and your National Guard training! I am glad the standards have greatly improved over the years in your training. But what does that have to do with Lucente writing trash about the president? Don’t confuse service with treason. Benedict Arnold was a great American soldier—until—he committed treason."

Unfortunately in your posts, you made it relevant. On January 15 you wrote:
"A “National Guard Crybaby” is one who signs up for the Guard because of the educational benefits or additional money and never even thought THEY would have to end up serving in an actual WAR!. During the Vietnam War they signed up to hide from the war. Most “National Guard Crybabies” come from support units—few from combat arms."

And on January 16, you wrote:
"I was an advisor to a state National Guard and All of those units were Far from being combat ready with half the units men unfit for combat during physically."

Just these two posts are illustrative of the ongoing incorrect assumption that because we chose to serve the way we choose to serve, in a reserve component unit, we are somehow less than our active duty counterparts. I don't know how long ago your experience as a state national guard advisor, or how long it was. It's obvious you assume Lucente's opinions are because he is a National Guard soldier. Do not make the mistake of assuming we are the same as "back then" whenever back then was.

Aside from the derogatory "National Guard" slant, Tom and I don't agree with our efforts in the Middle East, and while I may go so far as to agree what Lucente has written could be considered irresponsible in its potential detriment to our soldiers, and their collective morale, serrving in the hot seat, I believe he is doing what he thinks is the right thing to do as an American and believing his calling for nothing less than a complete withdrawal of our troops from Iraq is tantamount to the utmost support.

He has the right, the same right we all have, guaranteed by our Constitution to say what he wants as long as it falls within the established guidelines of Constitutionally protected speech.

He and I have both said it here and I will repeat for the benefit of those who missed it: I will defend in battle, and with my life if necessary, for Lucente, and all Americans, to speak freely their opinions. There is no caveat of agreement or dissent required to be considered protected speech.

Calling Lucente a coward or treasonous is the same thing the Crown said about the colonists when they revolted against the King of England. Many of them were captured and executed, but our forefathers persevered and ultimately prevailed in their efforts. Tom is carrying on a time-honored American tradition of dissent. The cowards are those who would do shut up and do nothing in the face of what they perceive to be injustice. Where would we be today, had the framers of our Constitution "shut up and toe the line."

Lucente may never be written in the history books as a great American patriot, but that's exactly what I believe him to be. Anybody who has read anything Tom has written, and agreed with him or not, and continues to call him unAmerican, has absolutely no clue in the first place what it means to be an American.

Donald, your inciteful…oops, I meant to say insightful posts never cease to amaze me.

So as Americans you feel we have a right to speak up BEFORE we go to war and to speak up AFTER a war, but DURING a war we need to shut up, or be called traitors. Gottcha.

Unfortunately the rose colored glasses are busy being used in the Oval office by "W" right now. Nearly two thirds (a majority) of everyone else can see just fine without them. Does that mean 2/3 of Americans are traitors in your eyes because they disapprove of this war? Maybe if everyone just shuts up, then everything would be OK.

Do you honestly think Bush is the only President that ever faced criticism during a war? Abe Lincoln took way more abuse, even in the Northern Press, and particularly by Democrat held states like New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Illinois, Indiana and Wisconsin. And this was during a CIVIL war!

Aside from the war, it's not like everything else this administration has touched has exactly turned to gold either. Why do you think no one wanted him screwing around with Social Security? He's like King Midas - in reverse.

Maybe the Patron Saint of illegal aliens could also spend a little more time and effort protecting our borders, and by adding more security for our ports, instead of trying to sell off our ports to "friendly" Arab Countries just for starters.

The real "traitors" in my opinion Donald are the ones quite literally selling off this great Country bit by bit, or if allowed, port by port to foreign Governments.

"He and I have both said it here and I will repeat for the benefit of those who missed it: I will defend in battle, and with my life if necessary, for Lucente, and all Americans, to speak freely their opinions. There is no caveat of agreement or dissent required to be considered protected speech."

Thank You.
Now THAT is a Patriot!

Susan,
I have read your foolish comments on these blogs many times. Obvisously you don't have a job or maybe you're really Tom Lucente trying to make himself look like someone supports his foolish liberal views. A serviceperson is to do what they are ordered to do as long as it doesn't contradict rules of law. You do attack people without provocation from the safety of your aninimity. I think you are a disgrace to our Country.
If I had the authority to do so I would have you charged with aiding the enemy.

So John, what you're saying is that you are just a lurker with no thoughts of your own and now you're opening your mouth to do what...insult a person who has never done a thing to you (ie, ME)...and personal insults yet as well... sounds to me like it's obvious who is attacking "without provocation from the safety of your aninimity" (unless you care to give us YOUR full real name)

Amen to CBrown and Dunedweller. Good to see most of the people here have a clue.

KD,

My column is not filled with liberal rhetoric and it follows perfect logic if one reads it with an open mind and is able to see beyond his or her own petty beliefs. Why is it conservatives label me “liberal” and liberals label me “conservative” whenever my opinion differs from theirs? In reality, opposition to the war should be a typical conservative view. After all, conservatives are supposed to stand for limited government and war is the ultimate expansion of governmental authority.

Nor do I suggest running the war by opinion poll. However, when only 12 percent of the population agrees with your idea, perhaps there is something wrong with the idea, and not 88 percent of the population. Besides, isn’t the government supposed to be a representation of the people? I think I read that somewhere.

Finally, as far as the number of Iraqi dead, estimates range from 100,000 to 600,000. I suspect it is somewhere in the middle. However, that is far more dead than would be today if it were not for George Bush’s “rescue” of the Iraqi people. Sort of like burning the village to save the village, wouldn’t you say?

In the end, this is not a liberal or conservative issue. Nor is it a Democrat or Republican issue. It is about common sense. Not one person on this blog, or in the United States for that matter, can logically justify our continued presence in Iraq. Please explain to me why American soldiers, sailors, Marines and airmen should continue to die in the Iraqi civil war? Why should Americans have to continue to bury their sons, daughters, husbands, wives, mothers and fathers because two factions in a moronic religion can’t seem to agree who should have been caliph 1,300 years ago so they have been killing each other ever since? Do you want to tell a mother her son is dead because a Sunnite and a Shiite can’t get along?

Opposition to this war is not only patriotic and the ultimate support for our troops, it is a moral imperative. It is intellectually dishonest to support our continue presence in Iraq, even if you supported the initial invasion and deposing of Saddam Hussein. Stop reacting with your partisan blinders and start looking at it logically.

-tjl-

Zlotnik,

I am mortified by your callous and personal attacks against me and others as well as your blatant ignorance of history and your obvious disregard for facts.

I don’t need to defend the nature of my service to this country. I have spent my entire adult life serving as a soldier. I continue to do so because I believe in this country. I can retire any time I want but I do not do so even knowing I could be sent back to Iraq. How does that make me a “crybaby” National Guardsman? If called, I will suit up, grab my weapon and stand to post while you sit in your armchair and gleefully cheer the death of Americans just so “your president” does not look bad. I HAVE NEVER REFUSED TO FIGHT, which is more than I can say for George Bush. Was he a “crybaby National Guardsman”? After all, did he not join the Guard to get out of going to war?

Let’s address some of your other “misinformation.”

You want to blame the State Department for George Bush’s stupid errors? Whatever happened to “The Buck Stops Here”? How can you say we would feel those effects here instead of there”? Just counting the American dead, do you really believe that had we not invaded Iraq (which had nothing to do with terrorism) that more than 3,000 Americans would be dead from terrorist attacks? How would you even come to such a conclusion? Except for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, there has not yet been a total of 3,000 Americans killed in this country from foreign terrorism in our entire history.

Of course, that is the first step in any dictator’s playbook. Keep the populace scared and make the sheep (like you) beg for the government’s protection. Are you such a coward that you would rather live in a country where civil rights are ignored and wars are fought without justification and cause just for political ends? Are you so scared of your own shadow that you have no problem killing people all over the world “just in case”? Do you really subscribe to the Bush version of the Golden Rule, “Do unto others before they do unto you”?

How can you claim that the decision to punish all Baath Party members is a “Lucente-type” of decision-making when I was opposed to the war? How can you say they have been killing each other in the Middle East for 10,000 years when 10,000 years ago was just the beginning of the Neolithic period? The whole Islamic culture was founded less than 1,400 years ago. And why would you say I am opposed to drilling for oil in Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico when I am clearly on record for expanding such drilling?

Blaming Johnson for the Vietnam War is plain silly. And your knowledge of the Iranian affair is ludicrous. Giving Reagan credit for the hostages’ release is simply idiotic. And what idiot got us embroiled in Somalia? George I, a Republican.

As far as stopping further 9/11’s I guess the war works retrospectively, too, because there were no 9/11’s before Sept. 11, 2001. Reminds me of the guy selling elephant repellant and claiming it works because there are no elephants around. And as far as saying Rumsfeld did not screw this war up, you are either ignorant of the facts or so in love with George Bush, you can’t see the facts. He threw out the Pentagon’s Iraq plan, which was planned for years. Rumsfeld continually ignored the advice of military commanders. I am surprised you stick up for such an arrogant idiot as Rumsfeld who is universally despised by military leaders.

Most scary, however, is your comment that we should “trust our president” to get us out of here. That is the biggest load of animal manure I have ever read! What an anti-American thing to say. It is our responsibility to govern ourselves and that includes challenging the decisions of our politicians. Stop being a sheep and goose-stepping around.

As far as the National Guard, I will pit any National Guard unit against any active duty unit. My unit continually ranks as the No. 1 logistics unit in the Army’s arsenal, and that includes active-duty units.

Finally, your last post was so inane it is not worth commenting on.

Disagree with me if you must, but stop questioning my patriotism and loyalty. When you do so, you insult the memories of every American patriot whoever died for the American cause. You sully the memories of our founders who spoke out against the King and committed treason in the name of liberty. You, sir, are a fascist of the worst kind. One who thinks allegiance should be given to the head of government. I, on the other hand, hold my allegiance to the people of this land the Constitution of the United States, which “your president” has obviously never read and for which he has little regard.

I pity you. I think you were irrevocably harmed in Vietnam and as I have told you before, I have the name and number of the chief psychologist at the VA hospital in Dayton. I can arrange an appointment for you. I will even drive you there if you need me too. You really should consider it.

-tjl-

Tom Lucente wrote:

"Of course, that is the first step in any dictator’s playbook. Keep the populace scared and make the sheep (like you) beg for the government’s protection. Are you such a coward that you would rather live in a country where civil rights are ignored and wars are fought without justification and cause just for political ends? Are you so scared of your own shadow that you have no problem killing people all over the world “just in case”? Do you really subscribe to the Bush version of the Golden Rule, “Do unto others before they do unto you”?"
Fear is often a tool used to maintain control. One need only look at the permanent "Elevated" terror alert level, and losses of Civil Liberties as outlined in such laws ironically called "The Patriot Act". This administration preys on it, so that its intent that people WILLINGLY will give up liberties for protection. It is manipulation.

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

Lucente, I see you let your blog bobbleheads soften up the thread before you brought in your “big guns.”

You have made some comments that need to be addressed but first everyone should read Thomas Sowells column in Wednesday’s paper titled, “Is U.S. Fighting Vietnam Again.” He explains exactly what Lucente is trying to do by AGAIN using the media to spread false propaganda for the left.

I am not going to answer Lucente in the order he wrote his post—but in an order that reveals his REAL intentions.

Lucente wrote: As far as the National Guard, I will pit any National Guard unit against any active duty unit. My unit continually ranks as the No. 1 logistics unit in the Army’s arsenal, and that includes active-duty units.

Answer: This is an important revelation. Lucente served in Iraq as a supply clerk, which is a far cry from duty as an infantryman or marine. I have great respect for the military’s supply system, but serving in an air-conditioned warehouse, eating $20 Hallibrand meals served by civilian chiefs and drawing the SAME combat pay as an infantryman just doesn’t seem fair to me.

It surly does not make one an expert on the Iraqi War or what combat is all about. Lucente was safer serving in Iraq with his logistics unit than he would be driving in a car in Ohio.

Lucente wrote: If called, I will suit up, grab my weapon and stand to post while you sit in your armchair and gleefully cheer the death of Americans just so “your president” does not look bad. I HAVE NEVER REFUSED TO FIGHT…”

Answer: Think even your most ardent supporters cannot support your claim that I “sit in my [your] armchair and gleefully cheer the death of Americans…”

I have NEVER ,never!!! alluded to enjoying watching Americans die in combat!!! Where in the hell did you come up with that!

You may never have refused to fight—but you have never fought—I have.

Lucente wrote: Most scary, however, is your comment that we should “trust our president” to get us out of here. That is the biggest load of animal manure I have ever read! What an anti-American thing to say. It is our responsibility to govern ourselves and that includes challenging the decisions of our politicians. Stop being a sheep and goose-stepping around.

Answer: It is now anti-American to trust our elected president? Clearly Lucente is advocating anarchy as to being a sheep? Or should everyone just ‘do their own thing?”

continued

Lucente wrote: I pity you. I think you were irrevocably harmed in Vietnam and as I have told you before, I have the name and number of the chief psychologist at the VA hospital in Dayton. I can arrange an appointment for you. I will even drive you there if you need me too. You really should consider it.
Answer: Now here is a supply sergeant telling a combat veteran; who engaged the enemy 32 times (27 of those times as the commander), a Purple Heart recipient, decorated four times for valor and once with the military’s highest award for heroism—that he needs mental help for what he has done.
I have been to the Dayton VA many times for surgery and medical treatment for war wounds—but never for “mental problems” I don’t even know where that office is—yet—Lucente does. Hmmm.

Lucente you aren’t trying to rip the government off by claiming PTSD for seeing a dead body alongside the road in Iraq are you?

Lucente wrote: Disagree with me if you must, but stop questioning my patriotism and loyalty. When you do so, you insult the memories of every American patriot whoever died for the American cause.

Answer: How can disagreeing with Lucente insult the memory of every patriot who died for the American cause when Lucente is writing treason, anarchy and is extremely disloyal to his commander-on-chief and his fellow soldiers DURING war!
Lucente wrote: You, sir, are a fascist of the worst kind. One who thinks allegiance should be given to the head of government. I, on the other hand, hold my allegiance to the people of this land the Constitution of the United States, which “your president” has obviously never read and for which he has little regard.

Answer: Is calling one a “facist” name calling? Or is it just me doing the name

calling?

I support the ELECTED President of the United States and those whoa re in a position to make better decision about Iraq with the best interests of the United States in mind—over supply clerks with a tendency for anarchy. If Lucente holds his allegiance to the “people” of this land—then he should support AMERICANS.

Lucente wrote: Blaming Johnson for the Vietnam War is plain silly. And your knowledge of the Iranian affair is ludicrous. Giving Reagan credit for the hostages’ release is simply idiotic. And what idiot got us embroiled in Somalia? George I, a Republican.

continued

Answer: Now the above is really good and really shows the LACK of knowledge Lucente has on most of the topics he writes about—with his very liberal libertarian slant to build distrust in the American people for their government!

We can go to just ONE phrase quoted from Dallek’s autobiography on Johnson titled, “Flawed Giant.” Dallek describes a scene in the Oval office where Johnson is talking to his advisors about Goldwater’s presidential campaign and he states, “I am not going to let that son-of-a-bitch look tougher than me!” Johnson followed through by escalating the Vietnam Advisory Teams to a full scale war by sending 200,000 troops to Vietnam.

Johnson did that AFTER the Chinese sent him a communiqué clearly stating they would not tolerate a democracy on their borders—which made the Vietnam War a no-win war for the USA.

As for the Iranian Affair—I lived through that absolute fiasco by Carter. Our embassy staff was held prisoner for a YEAR! Colonel “Chargin’ Charlie” Beckwith’s failed rescue attempt and 16 interest rates for home mortgages! I am very familiar with the military operatives during that time frame and exactly what was going on—Carter and his advisors made some huge mistakes!

The day after Reagan was inaugurated ALL of the Americans were released and Iran backed completely off. Why? Because Reagan made it clear that we would go to WAR to get our people released.

Somalia was a liberal press campaign with the news filled with “starving” children. The Black Caucus in Congress—liberal and racist—demanded we do “something” in Africa. Bush, knowing better, sent in aide and tried to control our involvement in Africa—where there are no democracies or even political groups willing to form a democracy. It was Clinton who cut and ran there.

Lucente wrote: How can you claim that the decision to punish all Baath Party members is a “Lucente-type” of decision-making when I was opposed to the war?

Answer: That’s right—you as a soldier and defender of liberty wanted to let Baath party members tear out peoples tongues with household pliers for saying bad things about Saddam—or let them hang Kuwaiti bankers from lamp posts—alive until they died. You were against that war.

Lucente wrote: How can you say they have been killing each other in the Middle East for 10,000 years when 10,000 years ago was just the beginning of the Neolithic period?

Answer: Anthropologists tell us there has been warfare in the Mideast since recorded history. The Jewish Torah reflects it as does the Christian Bible and the Islamic Koran. I used the number 10,000 year sin my post to reflect “a very long time” but I can rephrase that to say—since recorded history there has been CONTINUOUS warfare in the Mideast.

I was going to answer your post word for word—but I am getting bored responding to your drivel—I think the readers of your blog, even your blog bobbleheads get the idea.

You are NOT a patriot or even a good soldier—you are self-serving with a hidden agenda.

Susan,
Thank you. I tolerate the likes of Zlotnik because he is a veteran who was damaged by the war. He needs help so the best thing we can do is just let him spout his ignorance and feel sorry for him.

And you are right about the war in Iraq. I think too many people (though I was not one of them) supported this war in the beginning but have come to realize how wrong it was. Bush wanted to save Iraqis and protect Americans, or at least that is his dubious claim. Instead, he has killed hundreds of