Is the Rev. David Harris a racist? What does this sign mean?

In marketing it is called the curiosity approach.

Whatever Tom. Slow news day for you?

Scant, what is that supposed to mean, "Whatever"??? I think Tom asks a very good question, aren't you the slightest bit curious as to what the meaning is behind that sign? I hate it when people say "whatever" like that. It reminds me of my teenage kids when they are being smart mouthed. It's just another way of saying, "I don't have anything intelligent to say, but I think you're an idiot so I'll just sum it up with one word, 'whatever'" .

Tom, if that was what you call a "gimmick", is it any worse than the gimmicks you use every week by the choice of titles for your columns, or the first few sentences you often write in such a way as to grab the attention of the reader and make them want to continue reading to find out what exactly it is you're geting at?

Susan,

Not at all. If you are reading the headline or the lead sentence, there is a good likelihood that you will continue reading, or, at the very least, that you could do so with very little effort.

Harris, on the other hand, has put out a sign telling the world that he is a racist with the likelihood that an extremely small percentage of the people reading that sign beyond his actual church membership will actually go to the church to hear what he has to say.

I have no problem if he wants to do that, but it seems to me that he is telling the community he is a racist and that is all most of the community will ever see or remember. So I am not quite sure what he hopes to accomplish.

~tjl~

Susan,
The "Whatever" statement is something I will say when the story or argument is one of those roads that is not worth going down. You know the saying thats goes something like this, "If you try to argue with fools, after ten minutes, it's hard to tell the differance."

Tom, just for the sake of argument, if his "gimmick" reaches just one unchurched person, is it not worth it?

OK, Scant, I'm with ya.

Susan,

I would not think so. But if Harris thinks it is OK to ruin his reputation to get one person to come to his service for one week, then more power to him. I value my reputation more than that.

~tjl~

So what if he is, everyone in some way or another is a racist, even those that think they are not, are, everyone is a racist and it can be proved, so whats the big deal.

From a Biblical perspective (which I assume Rev Harris holds), there are only two 'races' - the 'race' of Christ and the 'race' of Adam. To avoid a lot verbage and scriptural references, here's the gist: When we are born, we are all of the 'race' of Adam (born into sin); when we choose to accept Christ, we become 'born again' into the 'race' of Christ.

As an aside, the concept of 'races' as we typically understand it is based on Darwin's work "The Origin of Species by means of Natural Selection or the Preservation of Favored Species in the Struggle for Life." Darwin is the father of racism and anyone who holds a worldview based on Darwin's theory is necessarily racist (but most will deny it, since they really don't understand the implications of evolutionist philosophy ... but that would be another discussion entirely.

I assume Rev Harris is speaking in these terms ... or perhaps, he is just trying to stir up interest in his church ... he did get an audience in Mr. Lucente's blog!

implications of evolutionist philosophy, sounds pretty interesting but not familar enough with it to discuss though!

Goldstein is right on, and that is what Harris is getting at. The sooner we can all admit it, the sooner we can heal our community. Why not come hear what he has to say?

JAY!!! OMG, don't start the Darwin thing, as it pertains to evolution and race. Even I don't want to go down that road.!!!!
Sgt DAd, Im-a still laughing!!!
Lima MOM....guess you are a member at that church huh? cool. Where is it? I forget.
Tom, I would like to think MOST of our citizens are smart enough to see through the sign and have a good idea what the Rev. ment by it. I just very suprized you didn't see it as did Goldstien amd limamom, and some of the rest of us.

Danimal,

While I reject the concept of race in humans (and it certainly predates Darwin by millenniums despite Jay's contention), I most certainly reject Jay's and Limamom's religious interpretation of race.

And, to answer limamom, if Harris is going to spew biblical creationist nonsense (as outlined in Genesis), I have no desire to hear what he has to say. I prefer to use the brain God gave me and not ignore reality in favor of some ancient tale written by a Jewish priest more than 6,000 years ago, a tale never meant to scientifically explain creationism, but rather to explain it to an ignorant population in a manner they could understand. It is an allegory that even the early Christians understood to be a tale and not science. It is an idea most religions and most of the world outside the U.S. have rejected.

~tjl~

danimal,
don't laugh, you never did grasp the point, I was making.

Tom, OK. Got it. I understand everything you said...almost. I certainly agree with your right to believe what you wish, and that you adimt God gave you a brain. I don't anything about scientology, is that where your tenents come from? No matter though, you made a very good point.
Now for the "almost" about your post. You reject the idea of race in humans? So then, then really is no racism? Just humans deviding themselves anlong some indefinable line and culture? Interesting concept. And it apears to be true. The idea of 'race ' as most people see it is scientificaly worng. What 'race ' really is can be thought of more as a social construct than a scientifict fact. DNA variations in humans vary much less than they do in other primates, and most mamlas for that matter. This suggests that what we now call "races" are just the skin and facial differances that came from evolutionary changes due to geogrphic locality, food stuffs and cultural life styles, and convergent evolution, dating back hundereds of thousands of years. In fact, we cannot even view ourselves as 'sub'spieces.We are homo-sapians. The only known sub spieces was homo-sapian, sapians. Thats a long story, but you get the drift.
So yes, we are all the HUMAN RACE. And what we have done is devide oueselves as cultures and call it race, when what we really seem to dislike, is how each other view the world and react to stimuli.
If only we could tell the rest of the world.

Right on, danimal. We are the human race. Our DNA proves that. Skin color means squat in the scheme of things. Except that my DNA is better than yours.

SGTdad,
Geeez dude. I DO GET IT! I grasp your POINT form the begining. That changes nothing my friend. Your point is MOOT, because of the LAW. Thats all I said the whole time. Like it or not, the law is what it is. OBEY it and MOST of the time, probably like 99.9999999998 percent of the time, you will have no problems. I never said I agreed with the laws, I never said I liked them either. Just that they do exsist, and when the lines are crossed, bad things most always happen, wether to good people or not.
I think it is you that has grasped the point yet. The point is, if you want the law changed my freind, lead the charge. Write to congress, the papers, go to city and county meetings. DO SOMETHING . Just don't set and b*t*h about it on here. Get busy, or be quiet. KAA PEEEESH?

HAPPY, well I don't know about that. I got some pretty healthy DNA's myself. I just have not spread it around that much. Except maybe those days way back in my other life maybe, that I don't remember and make no claim to!!!!! Oh and that one time in Florida, but I swaer I was drunk!!!!

danimal,

Exactly! Race is a social construct and varies from culture to culture and is usually based on superficial qualities. There is only one race, the human race. I believe that wholeheartedly.

And my tenets do not come from scientology. The idea that the Genesis story of creation is the literal truth is actually held by a very small minority of people and most of them are fundamentalist Christians in the United States. Their belief has no basis in history. Early Christians regarded the creation story in Genesis as an allegory. Even the Jews, whose story it is, have long ago rejected the idea of its literal truth.

That does not mean, as creationists will claim, that the rest of the population are atheists. You can believe in a God-created universe without accepting the childish Genesis story as the way it happened. God certainly intended us to develop our intellect.

~tjl~

Danimal,

Wow, you must be naive. My law books are full of cases where people obeyed the law and were screwed by the government or the cops or even the courts.

~tjl~

don't bother Tom, danimal doesn't get it, he won't get it, even when you spell it out to him.

TOM...well we agreed on everything this time. Even your law books are correct. Just imagine now how many books you could fill if they put in all the cases of people not breaking the law and didn't get in trouble. Bet that stack would reach to the Hubble telescope at least.
I did the math. The number of people in your books that got screwed up comes to
.0000000002 percent of everyone that followed the law and got screwed. Also remember, that 99% of allstatistics are made up on the spot!!!!

see! he still doesn't get it!!!

MUUUUUUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, I must be evil eh Sgt?
I get it. I am not Mr. Spok. For me, the needs (and wishes) of the many, do out-wheigh the needs and the wishes of the FEW.

TOM>>>>GET ME A SPELL CHECKER PALLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZ

I just don't get you danimal, being liberal, who's pro-abortion also blows my mind
you don't have a problem with leaving womens bodies alone, but no doobage huh?

You guys are far out. I don't know what Rev. Harris is going to say, but I doubt very much that it will be on creationism. Come if you are interested, don't come if you're not. Trinity is at 310 W. Market St. It's the big stone church downtown. Services are at 8:30am and 10:30am.

Make that 301 W. Market.

Sgt dad.......what?
what the heck was that all about?
Now i don't get it....I have no clue on your last post.
Have you been drinking tonight?
I am in no way LIBERAL...(:I took toms test a while back...I hit far conservative with a slight slant toward libertarian..(one square).
I am PRO LIFE ...period. No abortion, no time, no way. Its Gods work. Not ours.
Leaving womens bodies alone? what? WHAT? Not if given the choice dude!!! LOL, actually, I do leave them alone, except fot the special woman in my life...
No sir, no 'doobage' no fatties, no spliffs, no toots, no pipes, no drinks. That being said...to each their own...but if ya get busted....don't whine about it. Take yer lumps and ....move on.
I did my best to understand you...maybe you have the gaunga? Eh?

what? you mean your pro-life? you mean to tell me that a fetus is human?!?!
don't tell me that clump of cells as rights..your kidding me!!

ummm yes...that clump of cells has rights...and I know where you are trying to take this.
Nice try. No sale. Very lame attempt....but i commend you for originality here.
Now put down that pipe and slowly back away...........

so does Luther Hicks!! you just got your A$$ handed to you by a ex-garbage truck repairman crawl off the blog, your through for the night..

goodnight everybody, and I will leave you with the last word from danimal aka mister I don't have to know the foggest notion of what I'm talking about, because I have statistics!

Sgtdad.
Ex-garbage truck repairman? I guess you got fired for trying to fix the same tire 5 times a day, when you should have been trying to pick up all the nails on the floor of your garage. If something is broken, go work on the problem, just don't whine about it.
Strangley we have something in common. I work on hydrolics myself, along with electrical etc. on lift trucks and other MHE. (material handeling equipment.) But I always look for the ROOT problem and start my REPAIRS from there. Its a concept you have not figured out yet.
Oh by the way, if you handed me my ass, you must have been holding it? EEEwwwww, you are a sick puppy Sgt.

Tom called Jews "an ignorant population"!! I'm calling MediaMatters!

j/k

Hey Tom, if you're so intrigued, you should attend the service. Never know, you might be the one whose life is changed.

Mr Lucente,

Over the years I have read a number of your commentaries on the evolutionist/creationist issue, and your bias has been well documented. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and having the bully pulpit of a local newspaper allows you to air those opinions frequently. Generally, I've seen some very well reasoned and passionate arguments from your Libertarian perspective on various issues - some I agree with, some I don't - more power to you. Impassioned discussion of issues of the day is the foundation of the democratic process.

I do, however, take exception to your mean-spirited attempts to belittle my perspective, simply because you disagree with it. Making statements such as 'I prefer to use my brain,' 'ignoring reality,' referring to Genesis as 'childish' and other disparaging remarks about God-centered philosophy that attempt to imply that I "don't use my brain" or am somehow mentally immature are poor substitutes for logical arguments.

Apparently, we have significantly different worldviews. To me, this is just another example of how great God is to allow people freedom to believe whatever they want.

Sgtdad/Danimal,
I have enjoyed the back and forth you two have had. The both of you guys are strong in your views - for sure. You mechanics don't back down don't you. I bet you guys would get along pertty good if you two meet, being from the same profession. Just like I connect to others who do what I do for a living even though I may not agree with their views on things.

Scant,
glad you enjoyed the show,danimal's all right,but the next time we have a discussion
I'll have to practise keeping him on the topic to begin with.

danimal, I moved on from mechanics and don't have to wrench anymore.
and I put my daughter through nursing school fixing that same tire 5 times
day all on flat rate!

Scant.....
YA think? Sgt dad and I get along? I don't know. I was a Sgt. in the Army NG. Commo Sgt.
I think if I met Sgt DAD, i would use a wrench and tighten up his loose screws.

Oh, Danimal. You crack me up man. You remind me of the drill sgt. in the movie, "full metal jacket." I loved that guy. Uhhh even though the drill sgt. was shot by one of his recurits in the movie. I don't want you shot, but you and sgtdad are both hard asses. I love it.

danimal,
when an Idea forms in your head who's voice do you hear rocky the flying squirrel
or bullwinkle the moose..just kidding!

actually except our disagreement on the drug laws, I bet we see the same on everything
else except for the fact that I would never vote for mccain or obama

Sgt. Dad
When I type and you read, do you see russian? Ormaybe this looks like dolphin squeeks to you?
I love Rocky and bullwinkle......button up my sleave.....
Yeah, strangly enough, we are probably more alike than we are differant. Go figure!
enjoy.

I hear Boris Badnoff, and I'm writing in Vladmir Putin for president..God Bless him!
oh don't ever accuse Hillary of being a chicken again!

Lucente,

Can't you keep away from the discussion on origins? Your understanding of the subject is poor, and your comments absurd. Stick to law school, where multiple opinions can be "right" as opposed to science...you don't do well w/ the latter

Sgt dad
You are a basket case .... ...
I'd write in Vlad the Impaler, (the real Dracula) before I'd vote for Obama. At least Vlad let you know when he was gonna 'stick" you....Oh man, I crack me up.

By the way all,
I will be going to church Sunday am. I just have to hear this. And I am going to toss my pay-check up in the air, and if God takes his 10% , I will collect the remaining 90% and be happy. You just never know, he may let me off this week and take nothing.

DrTorch,

Clearly you are the one with an inadequate knowledge on the subject. You have never been able to refute anything I have said. Anytime you want to debate origins, you let me know.

~tjl~

Danimal,
After the service, give us all a full report on what Harris meant by the sign outside of his church. Clear the air for everyone, this is your mission for the blog.

OK SCANT,
Should I get the story like a CNN or Lima news reporter, or do you want something fair and ballanced?

LOL, the headline would read:

"Local cult lures in public, then asks for donation"

Danimal, thats a good one, fair and balanced please.

AverageGuy, thats funny I like it. I hear TLN is looking for a headline writer. It would make a great part time job for you.

LOCAL PASTOR TELLS THE TRUTH
This just in.
The Rev. Harris was not vandalized, nor was he making a shock advertisment. What he did do was tell the truth, and the sign ment just what it said.
Trinity Methodist Curch is celebrating recovery month. That has taken on the meaning of recovery from ANYTHING. Addictions, attitudes, predjudices, you name it. The message was simply that when and where he grew up, things were done in such a way that you didn't even know you were a racist, because thats just the way things were. I will not try to give his whole message here, but it was a tenet we could all use in our lifes, at home, at work, and in the general public.
He did tie the service to the book of ACTS in the New Testament.
Acts 10:9-15
Thats the teaching about how Peter said he would not eat of UNCLEAN food, (birds, mammals, etc) because he was always taught that they were 'dirty'. But God told Peter that EVERYTHING the Lord had made is clean and good.

NOw for the rest of the story!!!!!
When I first got to the Church at about 8:10am, there was nobody in the main sanctuary, so I followed my ears. Downstairs there seemed to be singing. So off I went. I came upon a crowd of folks, who, with all respect, had to be the homeless population of Lima. There were a few folks playing guitar and singing, and a HUGE table full of all kinds of breads and rolls and begals,.....you name it. But while I stood there, in a Pin-stripe suit, I must have angered a few black men at the table right in front of me. Although I stood silent and nonthreatening, one of the blacks at the table said loud enough for me to hear..." Who's this M...F'er think he is? I outta knock this white M-F'er on his A**" refering to me....go figure. I just said good morning and walked around behind them on to another area, and while I past him, he said...whoaaa, I don't trust no whitey honkey M-F'er behind me. Alas, so it goes. But the church was feeding these poor soals and I thank them for that. They were about to serve a complete breakfast to them also, with all the timmings. God does work in mystory, does he not?
But thats when I went back upstairs and was greeted to a small chaple where the early service was to be held. A little dry on the music for me, and for sure a totally white audiance , at least at the 8:30 service. But still a good word from God. The real message?
Trust God. Clean house. (spiritualy) and Help others. Lots of irony today. But the pastor was honest. Amen.

TOM...get me spell check! HURRY!

Thanks for the report, Danimal.

Trinity does indeed house the homeless through a program called Family Promise. They go to different churches in the area at night to sleep, but spend the day at Trinity. It gives them an address and a phone number, and they are taught how to land jobs and such. Its an excellent program that keeps families together, rather than separating them into the men's mission and the women's shelter., and they must be on a road to betterment or they will be kicked out of the program. I assume those are the people you saw.

The people you saw are simply people who want breakfast. They are not necessarily Family Promise folks--in fact, most of them are not.

There's more music at the 10:30 service.

Join us again if you like.

Daniaml,
Thanks for the full report on that breaking news story. I knew there was more to it than just what his sign read. I am glad you didn't get beat up.

LIMAMOM, please don't think I was talking bad about Trinity. I know (some of) those folks downstairs really don't care about the church or God for that matter.
I had a very nice impression of your church. The people seem genuine and Rev. Harris truley loves God, it shows, and everyone else was quite friendly. Also I love that old building. For myself, i am more of an evangelical type, with the newer praise and worship songs, like WBCL or WTGN. BUt you do have a nice church and I think they are reaching out to those in need, which is what a church should do!....Also HATS OFF to Panera Bread Co. for all they donate, and others I am sure.

Danimal...Thank you for joing us this morning. Trinity serves breakfast every Sunday morning for anyone who would like to come. Many of our neighbors join us. I too think our music tend to be a little "dry", but every now and then we do rock! Rev. Harris is a member of a band that plays during worship on occasion. They shake it up for all of us!! Feel free to join us again.

I know from years of observation that Rev. David Harris is the real deal when it comes to helping people.
You of all people should appreciate his efforts to make people think.

That being said Tom, you really ought to read C.S.Lewis "mere Christianity" and get a better grasp of what is really going on. Whatever education and expereinces you have are blinding you to the real war going on for our hearts and minds. Talk is cheap Tom, actions often speak louder than words.

As an inquiring mind looking for absolute truth, do yourself a huge favor, perform due diligence in this area, and learn the world is bigger than you know.

RussRamey AKA RussRamey6

I still have my copy of "mere Christianity". been years since I read it...