16 November 2008

[COLUMN] If GM fails, blame UAW

Bailout

The ball is really rolling now. All the pigs are lining up at the government trough to get a piece of that handout ... er ... bailout.

American Express is going so far as to redesignate itself as a bank so it can get a piece of the pie. Automakers, never one to pass up a free handout, are also throwing out scary, though completely ridiculous, doomsday predictions about what would happen if they fail.

Give me a break.

Such companies aren't too big to fail. They are just too big. Let them fail. Big companies fail and smaller, leaner companies that can do it better, faster and cheaper will step in to take their places.

Besides, it is the unions that have long ago destroyed the American auto industry, not the current economic downturn (crisis is excessively overblown for what is happening in the economy). You can't keep putting the screws to the company and not expect consequences.

The average compensation for a laborer for one of the Big Three automakers is $73.20 per hour. At Toyota, that average is $48. America's automakers are the most overpaid workers in the world. If you don't believe me, consider this. The average hourly compensation for professional workers is $47.57. The average for all workers is $28.48.

However, there is another reason to oppose the bailouts other than the lack of economic sense.

Government bailouts of private companies are simply illegal. The Constitution does not allow the federal government to spend our tax dollars bailing out private companies.

American politicians used to understand and respect that.

A short history lesson is in order.

The U.S. Constitution is a limiting document operating under the Enumerated Powers Doctrine. Simply put, that means the federal government has no power that is not specifically listed in the Constitution. It is not a living document that changes with the times. It means what it says.

James Madison, considered the father of the Constitution, understood this very well. During the Constitutional Convention, he argued that Congress should be given the power to construct canals. He rightly believed that canals would promote commerce between the states. The idea failed and no such provision was included.

By time he was president, the United States had grown dramatically and the lack of roads and canals were crippling the nation's economic growth. He urged the Congress to pass a constitutional amendment allowing the federal government to construct national roads and canals.

The Congress decided simply to pass a law providing that profits from the National Bank be used to build roads and canals.

While there was no stronger proponent of canals and roads than Madison, his last official act as president was to veto the so-called Bonus Bill. He understood such a bill to be unconstitutional despite his desire to see the roads and canals built.

Twenty years earlier, as a congressman, Madison, arguing against aid for French refugees, said he could not "undertake to lay [his] finger on that article of the federal Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."

Even as late as 1887, President S. Grover Cleveland vetoed a bill appropriating $10,000 in federal aid to buy seeds for Texas farmers suffering from drought because he could "find no warrant for such an appropriation in the Constitution."

That kind of character is what is lacking in Washington these days.

It is simply illegal and unconstitutional to harm Americans by taking their money and giving it to businesses simply because the owners and managers of those businesses failed to do their jobs properly.

It is especially disgusting to give our hard-earned money to automakers that have overpaid their employees for years while the rest of us paid the price.

It is time to stop these bailouts and they certainly shouldn't be extended to the auto industry.

As for all those automakers who might soon be out of a job if the Big Three automakers fail, they have no one to blame except the United Auto Workers union and themselves for their dogmatic support of unions.

It looks as though the chickens are finally coming home to roost in Detroit. 



Tom,
I worked at Ford Lima in the 70's and couldn't believe what the workers made for the small amount of labor each one was required to do. Amazing. Blame also needs to go to the greedy companies that were affraid of a strike by the unions and bowed to the over priced contracts. It was purley greed on both sides that put them where they are. And don't even get me started about how some workers abuse the unions after missing work 2-3 times a month and / or poor production then cry foul when the company wants to fire them.
I say if the government is going to (illegaly) give them more money, the workers should have to agree to a $10 an hour pay cut across the board. Its is simply amazing that a guy adding 6 screws to a valve cover thinks he deserves to live in a 250k house and drive 2 new cars/trucks. Where I work, the base laborer does at least 50 times the work as the average line worker at Ford, for $14-$18 less per man hour. Even the skilled trades, which is what I do, make far less than the guy sweeping the floor at the Big 3 auto makers. Whats wrong with this picture?
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
16 November 2008 08:11:40
ouch
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
16 November 2008 09:09:27
Sgt Dad?
Ouch? Do you work at Ford?
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
16 November 2008 09:25:02
work at Ford? didn't you state that people
don't work there!
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
16 November 2008 09:55:32
Sgt. I never said they were not employed there, just that they do very little considering the labor required to do non skilled jobs. Now fess up...Are employed there?
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
16 November 2008 10:14:50
So your saying that even if your employed there, you
don't work?
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
16 November 2008 10:31:28
Tom,
It's rare that I agree 100% with one of your columns, or that even if I do agree that you don't still manage to piss me off by saying something out of line. In this case you are 100% spot on. Bravo!
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
16 November 2008 11:00:19
dnaimal,
True confession, I am employed at Ford.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
16 November 2008 11:38:14
SgtGideonsDad, I worked in a union shop for over 20 years, as well as worked in other union shops, including one that was outsourced from Ford. In the shop where I had the most seniority, there was high absenteeism, medical leaves, and too many workers comp claims. Employees would get doctors' slips for an assortment of reasons which got them out of working, while receiving company benefits.

A few years ago, many Ford employees would eat lunch at Sugar Street Inn, that lasted well over an hour, sometimes two hours, with beer. They would carry pagers, so that when they were needed at work, a co-worker would page them. I know this for a fact. However, maybe that has all changed. I know many people who work at Ford, and are hard workers. However, there are too many slackers that rely on the union to keep their jobs. For all the employees who don't do their jobs, through laziness or illness, the price of cars go up, and consumers can't afford them. I have always owned Ford products, but this last time, I'm reconsidering, because of the costs of Ford parts, and labor. How I long for the days when I could fix my own cars, where the engine parts were accessible.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
16 November 2008 14:08:14
G,
Whether it's people in a union or people on welfare
you will always get your hard core types who refuse to work and will abuse the system.

I admit the generousity of the company is amazing,
I couldn't believe it when I got there (1997)
I spent years repairing heavy truck suspensions
ball breaking work to say the least and I when I got
hired in, I couldn't believe the stuff some people
got away with.
But alot of things have changed since I started working
there. The work force is better educated and with the
new flexible lines everyone has to know every job up and down the whole system, training is constantly on
going. And the skilled trades are now operating and repairing the machining areas.

In 2006 we voted to open the contract to allow outsourcing, the cleaning jobs were outsourced along
with other departments, like the non-production store along with some material handling jobs and the labs.
But in the last contract the National voted to give back some of those jobs to the UAW.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
16 November 2008 15:33:18
Sgt Dad,
bravo,for the honesty.
I am in a union too. The 'crook'ed one. If youz getz my point.
I have never been big on unions for the very points Happy mentioned.
But seriously Sgt. $27-28 an hour to push a freekin broom. When I worked there they had a room somewhere near what was called 'hot-test' on the V8 line that workers would go to and sleep for an hour while someone doubled up on the line, then the next guy would go. And they had a group back then that also went to Sugar Street in and had 2-3 martini/beer lunches, only to return to work half plastered. What a joke. And we wonder why we have shotty cars in the USA. It's the work force, plain and simple. I am sure there are lots of other auto factories with these same issues. And managment was also to blame, becuse they did not care what went on as long as the quota was met.
Amazing
mad
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
16 November 2008 15:45:46
Teamsters eh? I loved em in "The Good Fellows"
Your right danimal, $28 to push a broom, the cleaner
jobs were high senority, jobs that were 12hrs a day
7 days a week, a guy or gal could get rich doing that job
Like I said in the previous comment, those jobs have been outsourced, those cleaners make about $9 an hr
Ford's goal is to use the UAW hourly workers on the assembly ONLY, if your not actually putting that product together, your probably working for a vendor.

When I first got there in 97, it was the last year for that
V8 line you mentioned, a couple of times I got to work in that 'hot-test' area it was a good job, 1/2 on 1/2 hr off because the heat good get pretty intense, some guys would double and take an hr off.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
16 November 2008 16:19:19
I think times are changing in the big three companies and the union. The shift from what it used to be and where it is heading is changing. I am in a union and have never been a big fan of them. I would like to make the kind of money my uncle made at Ford, he retired a couple of years ago, sgtdad might have known him. Union members need to know it is a fine line they walk when trying to push a company in hard times, members come across as greedy. I have a very good job and I don't work for the big three, only one person on here knows where I work. Union members need to know that most of society does not look favorabley on unions when they are complaining about their contract, it falls on deaf ears.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
16 November 2008 17:20:29
I am horrified by your comments. The union is responsible for ensuring proper care of the rights of its employees. Its the responsibility of the employee to take care of their company. There are people who abuse those responsibilities in every category of life regardless of whether they are members of the union or not. Lets be honest, some of you "professionals" are sitting on your rumps goofing off. Maybe you should take a massive paycut. Although not in the big three auto companies my husband is a UAW member and he works his tail off. He is also not making anything like the salary Mr. Lucente is talking of although he does make more than the average factory worker.
I also want to mention that the figures on Honda are not necessarily accurate, I would like to review that source. The reason being that there are Honda factories that are UAW and those that are not. So, if Honda was failing, who's fault would it be?
I thought that Mr. Lucente's comments were cold blooded and disrespectful to every honest, hardworking, clean living union member. That would be like saying that every other shop in Lima that has closed its doors is the workers fault because they wouldn't take minimum wage.
Using Mozilla Firefox Mozilla Firefox 3.0.4 on Windows Windows XP
16 November 2008 20:21:28
Sorry, I meant Toyota, not Honda.

BUY AMERICAN!!!!
Using Mozilla Firefox Mozilla Firefox 3.0.4 on Windows Windows XP
16 November 2008 20:24:25
scant...
I know where you worrrerrk...i know where you worrrerrrk...neener neener neener.
But you secret is safe with me dude. It would take a real snowjob to get me to talk.!
By the way, how are we gonna get Susan and Happy, and Tom out for Coffee and pie?
You know, coffee stimulates conversation....not that beer don't, but beer does the talking. And Pie is just freekin good!!! razz
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
16 November 2008 22:12:54
sarah,
You said,

The union is responsible for ensuring proper care of the rights of its employees.

. HOGWASH!
If you are doing your job, and being honest, going to work on time, and not calling in all the time, you won't need a union to protect you. Period.
I have never been called on the carpet and needed a union rep to save my ass. You know why? Because if I was the cause of the issue, guess what, I admitted it! I didn't need some stuffed shirt to stand up and protect me. That has been twice in 13 + years. And I never felt my 'rights' were violated. Another time I proved the company wrong and they admitted it. Its called responsibility and fair play. If you do the right thing, you don't need your big brother to fight your fight.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
16 November 2008 22:20:59
Right on, Danimal. If anyone wants to see a prime example of unions doing exactly what they should NOT be doing, one only needs to look at our local prisons. My ex-husband is employed there and the stories he tells... omg. Must be nice to be able to call in drunk on a regular basis, take naps in the perimeter truck, and a host of other offenses and know that your union will save your butt from the chopping block when in fact you truly do deserve to get canned.

As for FORD, let me just say I used to work for a credit union that handled Ford employees and I knew I was in the wrong line of work when I had members come in and tell me they were getting paid to count windows and doorknobs all day at the plant. (no offense SgtG'sDad... sad )
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
16 November 2008 22:32:17
Sarah,

I don't believe Lucente suggested that auto workers should work for minimum wage. Just that they are grossly overpaid for the work they do. I agree with you that, "There are people who abuse those responsibilities in every category of life regardless of whether they are members of the union or not." The difference is, if a NON-union employee abuses those responsibilities, he gets fired and they replace him with someone who WILL do the job they are paid to do. The result is a more efficiently run business and a better quality end product. It does the companies NO good to have unions who save the butts of employees who are abusing the system and not doing their job.

BTW, I would be happy to "Buy American" when it comes to cars....IF... I could find an American made car that was anywhere near as reliable as my 14 year old Toyota with more than 265,000 miles on it and still going strong. I simply cannot afford an American made car because I cannot afford the repair costs. Unions have not done anything to help our American auto makers put out better quality cars. That's sad. (again, sorry SgtG'sDad..no offense intended).
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
16 November 2008 22:43:01
danimal...."coffee and pie"??? What happened to beer and wings?? Believe me, if you guys met me in person, you'd be wishing you had your beer goggles on! eek
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
16 November 2008 22:46:08
I understand what you are saying, but I am not just talking about getting in trouble, or having someone cover your mistakes or even about wages. Its keeping things fair for the worker. Maybe you work for a great and honest company and good for you. But what if they had fired you anyway? It wasn't your fault they were wrong but hey, who cares? I have seen that very thing happen. I think its great you could stand up and get away with it but not all companies are like that. There are a lot of large corporations that take terrible advantage of their employees. There are a lot of bad people in high places in the world (and lower) making decisions that affect the everyday worker. Think about the industrial revolution and about the conditions those employees faced and compare with what we have today. Unions are part of what improved those conditions. I hate to say that we still need those checks in place but we do.
Using Mozilla Firefox Mozilla Firefox 3.0.4 on Windows Windows XP
16 November 2008 22:50:20
Susan,

Thank you for being so polite, I like to hear other viewpoints without mine being called hogwash.

Oh, I love my Jeep (although it was probably made in Mexico and marketed as "made in the USA" and its been very reliable for a long time. God Bless
Using Mozilla Firefox Mozilla Firefox 3.0.4 on Windows Windows XP
16 November 2008 23:39:52
Thank you, Sarah. That's gotta be the first time anyone on here has called me "polite", haha (shut up danimal, scant and sgtG'sdad wink ). My husband drives a Jeep too. I love driving it, mainly because I like sitting up higher and feeling more in control on the road..especially on the interstate (plus, his is MUCH newer than my car so from a vanity standpoint, his Jeep beats out my Toyota... for now.) We haven't had it long enough to know how reliable it will be though. I hope it does well.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
17 November 2008 00:04:38
Sarah,
OOoopppps. Guess I should not have used the word hogwash. I will now do what I hardly ever do.....I'm sorry Sarah. Your opinion does matter.
Now get in the kitchen and make me a pie!
You know how to tell when a woman is about to say something smart?
When she starts out...."Danimal told me....... razz
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 03:53:19
Was listening to a lot of talk shows the past couple days. One guy said a big problem for the car industry is retirement. They are paying retirement to more people than are working. Many of them retire in their early thirties. Another factor is the high insurance costs. As I said before, I've always owned Ford autos, but everything connected to them is higher. Why should I buy their cars, pay for their products, then, turn around and use my tax money to bail them out, so they can continue the course? I don't like the idea of using my money so that Ford employees can retire in a few years, while I'm going to be working until I'm sixty-five or older? That doesn't make sense.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 07:30:21
Lucente is a mouthy jerk. It's nice to see a guy that hides behind his desk job and puts down fellow American workers when the economy is at it's worst. Talk about a job where you do nothing and get paid good for it....???
The big three are one of the last good paying jobs left. You want us to appologize for making a good wage?? Sounds like jealousy to me. I wouldn't wish anything on any worker at this point in time. How about lets all work together to get through this?? What an idiot!
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 07:39:51
"Lucente is a mouthy jerk."..."How about lets all work together to get through this?? ".... "What an idiot!"

Mike, sounds like you're the one NOT interested in working together to get through anything. Would you happen to be one of those well-paid auto workers who depends on his union to keep him in his job? Are you one of the factory workers getting a paycheck for counting the windows and doorknobs in the plant all day?

For someone who has a "job where you do nothing and get paid good for it"... Tom must be doing something right considering YOU still read him even though you hate him. And by the way, if you think he, or his co-workers at the LN are getting "paid good", you don't know what good pay is.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
17 November 2008 08:44:08
The UAW and Ford Execs can keep their over-paid jobs and mucho bennies ... just don't ask the taxpayers to subsidize your extravagence. Tighten your belts or go under - it's your choice.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 8.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 09:28:05
Susan, why am I not interested in working together??? Yes, I am a Ford worker and I don't count doorknobs..whatever that is supposed to mean. Tom is doing something right by pointing the finger at others??? What planet are you from? I couldn't care less what YOU or TOM make..just don't worry about what I make either. You picked your field of employment as I did mine. I am not asking for a handout from the government but if it's okay to give 700 billion to bankers that failed as well as other corporations and pay farmers not to till the land ...why are automakers any different?? I wish everyone could have a good job with good benefits but I don't curse the ones who have it better than I do..Last time I checked, the U.S was called the land of opportunity. Not with attitudes like you two!
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 10:37:37
The only reason GM and others are going bankrupt is due to "UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE" etc. It's just a preview of what to expect from a socialistic president. Welcome to Obamanation.
Oh by the way check this out:
http://www.aipnews.com/talk/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=973&posts=12
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 11:06:42
Warren Brown, the auto columnist from the Wash Post, defender of manufacturing and unions , had a great article on the industry w/ this reference

CAR CULTURE
Politics Keeps Great Cars Off Our Shores

By Warren Brown
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, May 16, 2004; Page G02

You'll find that the unions were hurting companies and the country by fighting the production of fuel-efficient autos. That's just one example. Abuse of time, shoddy work, protecting criminals...unions aren't about "fair" for the worker...they're racketeers.

They fight against innovation, they fight against improvements.

But, for the record, Lucente's typical simple-minded approach ignores reality. You can't blame JUST the UAW. Virtually all of these autoexecs are overpaid, their bonuses are extravagent, and they are equally destructive toward their companies and the industry as the UAW.

Think of Robert Kearns as a great example of the criminal approach many auto execs take w/ their decision making.

A few years ago GM reported profits of $99K for a quarter, most of that attributable to On Star. $99K?! Many execs make more than that! Why didn't they take a pay cut there? They had obviously failed the company, and pay cuts among execs could have multiplied shareholder returns by a factor of 100 or more!

Lucente is 100% right that these big, behemoths should disappear as the market changes. More responsive manufacturing, more responsible managing is what is needed.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 11:11:58
Why doesn't the Japanese Gov. offer money to the big three to come to Japan and create unfair competition to the Japanese Auto Companies.? Answer: Because the "free market capitolist" in the USA are playing into thier hands. They have a monopoly at home(in Japan) and the US Gov. is paying them to build cars in the USA and put American companies out of business. Makes a lot of sense to me. I can see why that is the UAW'S fault. Good news though. Wal Mart made a profit last quarter selling products made in 3rd world countries. How many jobs did that create. Once again, shame on the UAW for letting this happen. Entire neighborhoods were built on the backs of Union Labor in the 50's and 60's. Those dirty union people fighting for better pay for the common working person
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 13:00:52
Mike/doorknobcounter,

Did you actually even READ Tom's column or did you just see that it was about the auto industry and you started bouncing off the walls??? Geeez. Did you miss his entire point being about the UNIONS (not your rate of over-pay as you seem to think)?

Funny how you act like you don't know what I mean about the counting doorknobs. How long have you worked there? I had SOOO many members where I worked coming in during layoffs still getting their full pay because they went to work and did stupid non-jobs like count windows and doorknobs... just to avoid having to take such a drastic paycut by being on unemployment for a few weeks. Funny, even the ones on unemployment were making HUGE bucks even at a reduced percentage of pay. There is NO way in this world that you can convince me that any job you do at that place is worth the amount of money these guys are pulling in. NO WAY.

If you've read anything of Tom's before this column, you'd know that the 700 billion dollar bailout of the banking industry and farm subsidies are also NOT "OK". He spoke out loud and clear against it and so did most of the rest of us. So don't feel so offended thinking that he's singling out the auto industry. The point is, MY tax dollars should NOT be taken from me and handed over to YOUR boss just because he can't run his business properly enough to stay afloat. Like happyG said, people who buy the cars you put out are paying MORE than enough already, we should not all be responsible for keeping YOU in your overpaid job.

By the way, the US USED to be the "Land of Opportunity", but thanks to people likeyou, it has become the "Land of Low-Quality Over-Priced Goods". You are just another reason I'm going to keep buying Toyotas.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
17 November 2008 14:23:50
Dilbert, the American auto industry workers refuse to accept the fact that the Japanese are putting out better quality cars than our American auto makers. Don't make the mistake of thinking that the fact that American cars are inferior in quality to Japanese cars has nothing to do with why Honda and Toyota are doing better this country. I don't believe for a second that our American auto companies (employees at all levels) deserve the high rate of pay they are getting. When they start putting out car that can beat the Japanese in quality, THEN they'll deserve their big checks.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
17 November 2008 14:31:53
Mike raines, doorknob job, dilbert,
Facts are facts. The UAW AND the BIG 3 are equally to blame.
Like I said, I worked there. The way the workers screwed the company time and time again was amazing and uncalled for. One time when the forman wanted some one to do his job, and tried to get others to stay on the line for what was their REQUIRED TIME, a bunch of those idiots started tossing nuts and bolts into Carberators, and into the engine blocks, deliberately left nuts and bolts loose, didn't hook up all the lines ect...so HOT TEST would overflow and shut the line down. Don't say it doesn't happen because I SAW it with my own eyes, and pissed a few folks off because when asked, I damn well did the right thing and told the forman exactly who did what. Tough! I'd do it again. Sorry ass excuse for workers....wonder why we put out junk? BeCause the UAW workers are spoiled punk ass brats that don't give a damn about anything except themslef. If they want my tax money to save their overpaid asses, they can damn well take a pay cut.
Oh I have an even better Idea. Keep the wages, just make the workers pay 100% of their own healthcare. I am sure this goes on all over thet USA when it comes to the UAW, because they have it made and don't know it. It's time they did pay. I hope Honda and Toyota run them right the hell off the planet....unless of course the UAW and it's membership pulls their collective head out of their asses and try to work on a solution. A REAL SOLUTION. And theri leader say NO MORE GIVE BACKS. Screw him...close the damn place and start over. See where that leaves you folks....Doorknobjob, etal..
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 14:43:28
danimal -so you worked there and see how everyone did wrong and got over paid for not working... does this mean you quit to go somewhere else becuase you could not force yourself to work for a company or union that would ever so allow this??? Or did you just go along with it to make the money and do nothing... or are you going to tell us you were one of them that worked just like a good boy... reading these crack me up.
Everyone on here apparently does major research and KNOW the facts they write instead of going by what they absorb into their minds as what they want to believe and write like it's all facts. CRACKS ME UP !!!!!
The guys/girls applied for these jobs just like several others did. So lets put the "mark" on them for getting the job and having a job, especially with times being so darn tough. BUT no i guess for some odd reason let the jobs go and what you want them to all go on welfare so that you can pay for them and the families? Be thankful there are jobs.

razz
Using Mozilla Firefox Mozilla Firefox 3.0.4 on Windows Windows 2000
17 November 2008 15:30:12
Susan you better go to consumer reports and look at the Lima built 3.5 L V6. BEST IN CL;ASS. Over Toyota, Honda, Nissan , GM etc. Ford has drawn even with Toyota in quality. Your argument is outdated. Those are facts. To the guy that worked at Lima Engine in the 70's. It is a completely different world now. We don't even Hot Test our engines anymore. Most of the people working then are retired and in our last national negotiations the UAW closed the gap between the Big 3 and the transplants. Those are the facts. All I know is that every time that Lima Engine takes applications, people are lined up to get them by the thousands. Must be doing something right out there They are a team based organization lead by hourly team leaders over work groups building world class engines with only about 650 hourly employees compared to 4000 when you worked there.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 15:54:24
If there truly really were a Free market, you guys wouldn't be complaining about
a government bailout of the Big Three right now..
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 16:58:16
Daisy6, just a few questions for you to ponder, no need to answer here if you don't want to, but I hope you'll think about them. Do you have a job and pay taxes? Do you or your husband work in the auto industry? If you do have a job and you do not work in the auto industry, do you mind if the government takes the money you worked hard to earn and hands it freely over to the auto corporations so that they can continue to pay the huge salaries of their own employees? How do you feel about auto industry employees, who don't even need a post-high school education, making huge salaries and getting awesome deals and incentives on purchasing new cars from their factories when so many people in this country who are extremely hard working don't make nearly enough money to buy those new cars themselves, but now will have THEIR tax money used to support the auto industry's greed? These people who can barely put food on the table for their own families and can only afford to buy used cars should feel OK about the government taking money they worked hard to earn and give it over to these big corporations so that someone else can keep getting paid ridiculous amounts of money to make cars that only they can afford to buy? Like I said, you don't have to answer those questions unless you want to.

My personal feeling is that actual auto industry workers are the only people who would not be angered over that. But any auto industry worker with a moral conscience should be angry about it as well. Sadly, there's an awful lot of greed in this country.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
17 November 2008 17:27:35
Danimal, you need medication. Don't know how long ago you worked there but the scenario you are talking about doesn't go on....never saw it, never will. The company/union wouldn't tolerate it guaranteed! I'm guessing you were part of it and that's why you're not employed there anymore. Too bad for us, you sound like such a swell guy!
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 17:45:29
Dillybar, There's a lot more to a good quality car than just the engine.

I base my opinion on my own personal experience. I've always had American made cars. Mercury Monarch, Buick LeSabre, Buick Century, Plymouth Grand Voyager, Ford Escort, Ford Probe..I can't even remember them all.... it wasn't until I got my Toyota Camry that I felt I had a car that was truly worth the money it cost. Not a one of those other American made cars would have lasted as long or for as many miles as this Toyota has and I've had very little problems with it. The Ford Probe, which was my husband's car was absolutely the worst ever. My sister had the same experience driving American made cars then got herself a Honda Accord and that thing drove forever. I realize that hits you where it hurts and of course you would feel somewhat offended by that, and I'm sorry, but it's absolutely true.

You said, "All I know is that every time that Lima Engine takes applications, people are lined up to get them by the thousands. Must be doing something right out there " Duh. That's a no brainer. Of course people line up for a job that requires no education and pays big money. You are naive if you think they're lining up because of all that hooey you said about building world class engines. Those people don't give a rat's you know what, they are after the big bucks...and thanks to the unions, they're getting it. By the way, people line up for jobs at the Honda plant too.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
17 November 2008 17:55:08
Daisey 6,
Actualy, I did everything asked of me, because I was raised that way. If someone is paying you to do a job, ANY JOB, do it well, do it honestly, with a sense of urgancy, integrity, and initiative. Thats the way I was raised and thats the way I still do things.
But to answer the only question you asked that made sense, I was laid off. But when I was recalled, I decided that even though I was making less $$$ I had a job where people respected each other, and their job. And I got to use my brain. A big plus.
Also you clearly miss the point of this blog. It's here for OPINION. If a few TRUE personal experiances get tossed in......all the better. But sense you have you "crack up" the blood must be rushing to your head, making it hard to think.
What I am saying is that IF my employer were about to go under, I would look long and hard at what I/we could do to help stave off the loss of those jobs. But what UAW workers say is NO...they won't help. So close the place. See where else they can go get a job, with no real skills. (you can train a monkey to run a screw driver)
Smoke that in your pipe and STCK IT.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 17:57:06
drdoom nailed that one on the head...very simply put, but completely accurate.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
17 November 2008 17:57:52
No one here cares about how much Ford employees make, but we care about the price of cars. And, we certainly don't want to pay your wages and healthcare, because both are a heck of a lot better than most of ours. Your union leader said no concessions, so if you guys don't want to give up anything, why should we?
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 17:58:27
Susan, funny how everytime I read anything from you concerning Ford, it seems like a jealousy issue. I am the bad guy for taking advantage of benefits that my company offers?? Sorry if you are not happy with your pay, find another job. I'm glad you don't buy our product. It's obvious that you are a whiner. I worked at several other companies before Ford and I am proud to say that I never bought an imported car and I didn't bitch about the people that worked at Ford, Dana, General Dynamics etc.
This is my first time on this blog and it is a joke! Yes, I read Tom's column and like I originally stated it's time for everyone to work together to pull us out of this mess, not point fingers and place blame on others.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 18:05:13
Dilbert,
dude, how nice of you to notice!! I am a swell guy. So I am told.
And no, I was not part or party to it. It pissed me off, because, as I told DaisyMay, I was not raised that way. Self respect had a large part in it too.
And AGAIN, I was relaying what I witnessed in the mid 70's. Have not stepped foot in the plant since then. And further more, do not want to.
By the way, I do have a Ford Ranger. But when time came to guy the wife a new car....actualy the last 3 new cars, It was not one of the big3. Because they could not offer the warantee, bang for the buck, style, options etecetera that the SONATA did.
And in 3 of them, only once did we have to take any of them in..... for a recall. (sensor)
The rest was just oil changes and tires. Pretty sure the reason the Big3 could not match the price, quality etc, was because they had to put that money into overpriced workers and CEO saleries.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 18:16:19
Doorknob, you still refuse to approach the topic of the column... UNIONS. You're so busy insulting the author, me, or anyone else who disagrees with you that you can't even carry on a civil discussion.

If you think this blog is a "joke"... why stick around? You just can't help yourself can ya?

(Stating that you've never bought an imported car explains why you think your Ford cars are the best...you've never driven anything better.)

HappyG said it exactly right. I hope you can listen to her without insulting her too.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
17 November 2008 18:58:59
danimal - you're momma did something wrong when raising you, you are mean nasty and horribly bitter. You are mistaken to think anyone can believe you are a hard honest worker with your attitude.

Susan - I work full time and so does my husband... i would rather my money go to a business and keep those employeed versus going to welfare people anyday. Don;t get me started on welfare either, if you know someone on it i bet they are a loser.

Several of the people that work on the line are well educated people. I know some and could probably out do any of you, but you put yourselves so high on that pedestal and have so much anger in your twisted minds, you would never stop to think that. I know people that work at these places and they are extremly well educated some have even went to college.

All i know is I support Lima and my neighbors. I want to see everyone working and living a life that makes them happy.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 19:12:42
Oh Daisy...poor poor Daisy. You don't get it. We don't want to put you and your friends out of work. We just don't want to put OUR hard earned money into paying THEIR paychecks. We don't own the auto companies. We do not get a share of their profits. WHY should any of us be helping pay for THEIR salaries? When any one of us buys a car from their companies, that is helping them keep their jobs. We don't wish for them to be unemployed. We just want the big auto makers to do what the rest of us are forced to do when money and times are tight. We have to cut back, reduce our spending and often times, we end up taking paycuts at our own jobs. WHY should you and your friends on the line continue to make exhorbitant amounts of money for pushing buttons and screwing screws all day long when your companies are struggling not to go out of business? Would you rather have a job with a smaller paycheck, or no job at all??? See, the thing with you guys is, as long as you have your cushy union, you can't lose. You get paid BIG bucks when you do work, and when the companies have to do layoffs, you still make BIG bucks on unemployment. You and your union would rather see the companies go under than try to help your company be able to compete in today's market and make the necessary cutbacks (in YOUR salaries) that could enable your company to NOT need a handout from all of the rest of us taxpayers. Imagine how much less these new cars would cost if the company did not have to spend so much money on overpaid wages? More people would be able to afford to buy cars from them, and thus, the company would make more money. It isn't a difficult concept to understand.
"All i know is I support Lima and my neighbors. I want to see everyone working and living a life that makes them happy." No, I think what you really meant was that you want to see YOURSELF and YOUR friends living a life that makes them happy, and screw the little people who will have to pay more in taxes just to enable you to have that happy life. That makes you no better than any person on welfare that you called a "loser".
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
17 November 2008 20:04:50
I really think that most people would see this in a completely different light if taxes weren't taken out of paychecks before we even got paid. Imagine if everyone got their pay in full every payday, went to the bank, cashed their check, and then someone from the department of taxation showed up at their door like clockwork, every time payday rolls around and orders them to hand over X-percentage of all the money they just made, in cash. People are so used to having taxes already taken from their check, I honestly don't think many people even think much about it. If you had to take the money out of your own wallet every week and give it to the government guy at the door, you'd feel differently about it. And in this case, imagine having a guy from one of the Big3 auto makers (or a rep from the banks that our 700billion in taxes just bailed out) shows up at your door to collect the cash directly from you... you know, so they can go back and sign the big fat paychecks of their own employees for a company that you have nothing to do with. How would most people feel about that, looking at their own finances, the high cost of utilities, clothing, food for their children, gas for their cars, health care, knowing they are barely making ends meet themselves, but having no choice but to take a chunk of their money from their pocket and hand it over so someone else can drive a new car, live in a nice house, and enjoy everything someone else's money can buy them? Looks worse that way doesn't it?
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
17 November 2008 20:18:20
"That makes you no better than any person on welfare that you called a "loser".
"spoiled punk ass brats"

If this were the French Revolution, Susan and danimal, would be standing at the
guillotine with the rest of the mob screaming OFF WITH THEIR HEADS
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 21:37:11
Susan,
Damn Skippy girl! You made an excelent point. I do not want MY tax dollars going to ANYONE who won't help them self. That includes auto workers who won't bend, CEO's that rape the economy, Banks that charge outragious intrest and are hording the $$$ they got from you and I. Welfare life timers, and people that don't can't andwon't do an honest days work for an honest days pay.
Daisy 6,
my my my you are cute when yer mad!
And everyone, including those who don't like me much would all tell you, I work hard, all the time, and treat everyone who comes to me with a problem with respect and tollorance. I make it a point to lead by example. Dad taught me that, then the US Army continued the task. And Mom baked pies, still does. Why don't you go bake me one too?
And while you are at it, cook up some crow, I am sure you are hungry.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 21:41:13
Sgtdad,
I never liked the French much. Back stabbers. Liars. Smelly. Hairy women> EEEWwwwwwwwwwww.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 21:49:48
SgtG'sDad... just to set the record straight, I did NOT call people on welfare "losers", I was quoting Daisy who said that people on welfare are losers. I would never ever ever say something like that. While I don't believe my tax dollars should pay for other able bodied people to sit on their ever-widening rear ends and get a free ride, I do realize that there are people who through no fault of their own find themselves in dire straights and enter into the welfare system only as a last resort, not to swindle the system, but to make sure their families have food to eat and have heat in their homes over the cold winter months, while they make every effort to find employment and get off the welfare as soon as possible. There are also disabled people with no ability to work and support themselves, these people certainly need to be cared for somehow. The ONLY welfare recipients that I would ever consider "losers" are the ones who CAN work but choose not to and the ones who crank out baby after baby to get more free government money and then raise those kids to know that they also never have to work because they can live off the rest of society.

Maybe it was Daisy who you thought should find herself in the guillotine? (although, I'm sure there are plenty of other things you could find to put me there for) wink
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
17 November 2008 22:38:14
You're right, danimal. I can't stand the sight of you, but I would have to grudgingly admit that you really are a hard worker. lol
(I think George, on the show Seinfeld, had the right idea about hard work. He said that if you sit at your desk and act pissed off and frustrated all the time, people think you are always working hard. eek biggrin )
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
17 November 2008 22:42:31
danimal, didn't I already have the French on my "list"??? Let me know, I will go add them if I have neglected to already. smile By the way, I am part French. But I assure you, I am not a "back stabber" or a liar, I'm pretty sure I'm not "smelly", and I definitely have a very close friendship with my razor. Must be because I am only part French. Don't hate me because I am culturally confused. eek
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
17 November 2008 22:59:00
Why can't we all just get along!

Susan, what do snails taste like?
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
17 November 2008 23:14:32
Sgt, I am not THAT French...I think I'd rather eat crow than snails. smile
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
17 November 2008 23:32:05
Susan?
Can't stand the sight..............? what....where are you? Don't tell me you know me!!
And I was only being sarcatic about the french. Some of my best friends are French. We even have a French family living on the block. But I don't like Pepe' LePuew.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
18 November 2008 02:03:11
I am done with this column. It seems the only one who makes sense on here is SgtGideonsdad. Have fun!!
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows Windows XP
18 November 2008 06:49:11
Susan -... this is EXACTLY what i meant by no one has facts, just there own guesses at what is going on... i do not work at Ford or GM i do not even work for a union company... neither does my husband... this is exactly what assuming does it brings people to come to conclusions and write & speak lies.
Using Mozilla Firefox Mozilla Firefox 3.0.4 on Windows Windows 2000
18 November 2008 07:49:16
I do not want to see Ford, or any auto industry go down the tubes. But, they must attempt to save themselves first, before asking us to bail them out. So far, they refuse to budge. It would be nice if they could maintain their high lifestyle, but it is people who don't make half their money that buy the cars they make. Most of us can't afford them, so why would we want to bail them out, and they still live high on the hog, and we still can't afford their cars? Ford's employees can retire as early as 50 years, and Ford pays their retirement for another 30 or 40 years. No wonder they are broke.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
18 November 2008 07:59:26
lol @ danimal.

Doorknob, finally you said something I can agree with, SgtG'sDad does usually make a lot of sense around here.

Daisy6, what "lies" are you talking about? And since you claim not to work there, how would you know what are lies and what aren't?

HappyG, as usual, you're spot on.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
18 November 2008 08:16:47
Man! that Doorknobber is a great judge of character
isn't he?
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
18 November 2008 10:37:54
I think you all should go back to the 2007 UAW negotiations with the big 3. The Union and companies negotiated a land-mark contract that brought the labor cost of the big 3 in line with the transplants. This is not about the UAW, its about the economy. One more thing, the profits from the big 3 stay in the good ole USA and the others go back to Japan, Korea and Germany etc. Great for the economies of those countries but not so great for ours. Please think about how many people work in automotive supplier plants. They are not all union and they are at risk also. 3 million jobs in the USA. Is it worth all those jobs because you dont like unions.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows Windows XP
18 November 2008 10:49:49
Susan, I am in the auto industry, and I see absolutely no pattern that foreign cars break down any less than domestic cars. I have a Ford with 220,000 miles, a GMC with 230,000 miles, and a Dodge with 160,000. But I've argued this point till I was blue in the face on numerous occasions, and usually get nowhere, so I won't take it up with you. Especially when you're spot-on about everything else you've said. (Except that your Ford Probe was actually a Mazda import)

Doorknob- No one blames you personally for the trouble the company you work for is in, nor do we expect you to start refusing your paycheck to help out. Thing is though, you have to face facts, the company IS in trouble, and it cannot afford to continue doing business the way it has been, or you will be out of a job. You cannot draw a salary, or retirement, or get health benefits from a company that doesn't exist. And Tom is right, it is not constitutional to use my tax dollars to bail out any company. On top of that, it's just nonsensical to bail them out and continue to let them make the same mistakes. There is roadmap out there that can be followed as to how a big automaker can be profitable, why not take a look at them? (pssst- they don't have unions)
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
18 November 2008 11:51:42
Doorknobjob only likes people that agree with him.
But sgt dadeeeo is OK in my book too!
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
18 November 2008 13:03:31
Average dude,
wow man, you need to upgrade ...don't you have a family member at ford? "A"plan baby...they get their cars dirt cheep. It's in their contract!!!!!!
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
18 November 2008 13:08:40
Dilbert, correct me if I'm wrong, but can't Americans buy stock in Honda, Toyota, etc? Aside from all the American jobs these companies provide right here in America, it seems to me that the profits from those companies does not all "go back to Japan, Korea, Germany, etc" either. If you own stock in those companies, the profits go to wherever the stockholders are.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
18 November 2008 14:13:45
So, I was just watching WLIO and I see they're talking about the auto reps and the government discussing the possible bailout and they say that they have postponed making a decision until December and in the meantime, the auto execs are supposed to come up with the plan for this loan/bailout/whatever you wanna call it. Is it just me or is it just INSANE that the government would be having the auto execs making the plan? I mean, since when do people applying for loans get to tell the lender what the plan will be? Geesh, it's bad enough that the gov't is even considering this in the first place, but to put the details in the hands of the auto industry that couldn't handle their own finances in the first place is just crazy. Oh wait... the government can't handle their finances any better... we are SO screwed.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
20 November 2008 18:16:23
... and they showed up on THREE separate corporate jets..... yea, I think I'll go park my Lamborghini downtown and sit on the hood holding a sign begging for free food.

One of the congressmen (wish I had paid attention to who it was) said something like, 'What a delicious irony it is seeing people arrive in Washington on three luxury jets coming to us with tin cups in their hands'

These guys have some serious nerve.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
20 November 2008 18:41:24
Who do you find the most contemptable Susan, the auto execs or the
rank and file?
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows Windows XP
20 November 2008 21:02:25
By "rank and file", do you mean the line workers? If so, I don't find them contemptable at all. If I was offered a job that paid that good and had a union to save my ass every time I screw up, I'd be happy to have it. I don't blame them for wanting to keep their jobs. I do find it contemptable when those workers try to say that they aren't really paid that well or they make excuses for why they deserve to be paid that much. I'd rather them just be honest and say, "Hell yea I make damn good money, and I love it!" Can't blame them for wanting to make as much money as they can. But if you want to know who I find the most contemptable, it would be a tie between the union leaders and the execs. The unions for continuing their age-old scare tactics, convincing the workers that if they don't have unions, they'll either lose their jobs or they'll be paid slave wages, threats of child labor, no benefits, blah blah blah.. anything they can come up with to make sure workers are too afraid NOT to have unions. The unions also for using threats of strikes that damage or even totally destroy companies to force them into bowing to their demands of outrageous pay rates, benefits, etc, AND for using their power to keep workers who have no business holding those jobs from being fired, workers who bring down the level and quality of production and bring down the company as a whole. And of course, I find the execs contemptable for their extreme greed and unwillingness to cut back their own spending on luxury private jets, vacations, bonuses, pay raises, etc etc etc...and how they continue to pass on the price of their greed and the greed of the unions, on to the consumer by jacking up the prices of their vehicles..then when these economic times are rough and the American people can't afford to buy their product, instead of reevaluating and making changes that might be uncomfortable for them, they come crying to the government to save their butts. They use scare tactics and threaten the American people with certain economic doom if we don't bail them out. Then they get back in their luxury jets and fly back to where they came from. That, my friend, is contemptable.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
21 November 2008 00:31:23
Susan, those were 'private jets'...not corp.
Makes it even worse, don't you think?

@ Sgtdad,
Who or what do find most contemptable Sgt?
And while we are at it, what do you think is the best fix for all this?
We know it's the ecomomy that needs fixed in the long run to save your job and millions of others. But that is not going to happen overnight. What steps could be taken right now to help the auto industry? Just tossing the money to them and saying good luck does not work for me. I agree with congress....they need to have a plan in place. Not sure if congress can do the oversight though, but there has to be some accountability, and huge changes made. Some of that HAS GOT TO COME FROM THE RANK AND FILE, period.
Your UNINO leaders staement that they will not concede ANYTHING has put the UAW and it's membership in a tight spot. MOST Americans say the same thing. If you won't help yourself, then don't ask me for help. If the Union and yourself made a real genuine offer to save your own jobs, the country would get behind you and be willing to help. Thats pretty simple to understand, is it not?
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
21 November 2008 02:50:30
Both of you keep assuming that the rank and file today are the same as the one in the bad old days, and that's
just not true. It's a totally different world out at the
LEP. Now a days you do as your told or your out, sometimes you do get a screw up, but they either
straighten up or they're terminated. I've already said it before, two years ago we voted to open the contract
up to allow outsourcers and new workers in at reduced
wages. It was the UNION that pushed us to vote for that
deal, and we did, by a large majority.
Gettlefinger, may have said we weren't budging on our
benefits, but the guy's just standing tall for right now,
he knows we have to adapt or die.
You can walk down the line at LEP and ask every rank and file member if we are willing to take a paycut or pay for our health care and almost all of them will agree to do either.
As for the execs, I don't know what to tell you, I can't understand why they all didn't caravan to DC in our
product. But as I said before the exec class are parasites.

dnaimal,
you ask me whats the best fix for all of this?
Two words, Free Market!
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
21 November 2008 11:07:04
Sgt,
120 words....totaly free market...more greed and coruption? You mentioned once before that we had a FREE MARKET pre 1929...but then you failed to explain just what went wrong with it to make it colapse so completely.. However
If you are saying free market, then you to agree that we give no government loans to the big 3 or anyone. In a free market they will live or die by their own actions.
So I guess you and I are in agreement. NO handout. The rank and file do some givebacks, and get your leaders and CEO's ect to pull their heads from their asses, and use the free market to fix this mess. Now you are making sense.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
21 November 2008 14:44:24
Hey Sgt, I'm curious, if almost all the line workers are willing to take pay cuts and/or cuts in benefits, is it the union that is preventing it or the execs?

About the unions covering butts for people who screw up, my point with that was not specifically an auto union statement. It's a union in general thing. Maybe the union where you are is less that way than the union at say, the prisons. That's where I hear the most stories about guys depending on the unions to keep them in their jobs when they should be fired. Although, it hasn't been even five years since I worked with a lot of auto workers, and it sure seemed like a lot of them smelled of alcohol when they came in to cash their paychecks right after they left the plant on Fridays.

You're absolutely right though...free market IS the answer.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
21 November 2008 14:52:36
"So I guess you and I are in agreement." NO handout would be a free market
action, so your right, you and I can agree that the free market is the best answer.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows Windows XP
21 November 2008 15:30:47
Susan,
The biggest problem isn't the line workers taking a pay cut or paying for our healthcare which is the same thing, the problem is the the pension fund and health care costs for the retirees, it's like two retirees for every worker.
Something will be done about it or else, there's no escaping that elephant in
the room for the Big 3 or the union
To be fair to Ford, they have been pretty aggresive in restructuring the company
they've closed several plants bought out nearly half the workforce and even made a
profit last quarter( a small one) and in the last contract the union agreed to take
over and manage the health care for the workers, but this economic down turn has
us in a bind right now..
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows Windows XP
21 November 2008 15:50:48
Yea, Sgt, i see what you're saying. What can they do about the pension and health care for people already retired though?
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
21 November 2008 17:15:47
The Union will take on the responsibilies of the retiree's health care I think in
2010 Ford will give the UAW one lump sum of money for the healthcare and the Union will mangage it and dole it out to the retirees..
That's if the Big 3 get their loans, if not who knows?
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows Windows XP
21 November 2008 17:48:42
Sgt,
Not so fast my friend, on one hand you say free market, meaning Ford and the others live or die on their own....on the other you say they need the bailout bucks to meet retirement obligations. Now which is it? Are you FOR or AGAINST the bailout?
Remember this is an 'either/or' question. No doublle talk.
Remember also that if you choose the 'free market' you are dooming the retirees to losing their health care. Those are the guys who fought for the outragious wages you now enjoy.
If you choose the bailout to insure some money goes to the UAW for that plan, then you are anti free market. ...or maybe you just better punt.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
21 November 2008 21:03:45
before I say anything more, do mean give Ford a bailout or a loan?
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows Windows XP
21 November 2008 21:48:21
Sgt,
At this point, I think we have to call it a bailout. Ford or the other two have not shown a plan on how the 25 billion will be used, or how and when they will repay the money.
If, in fact, they go under, then there will be no repayment, thus making it an attempted bailout. A red herring.
Here's the real funny part. Ford says they are still OK thru 2009 and into 2010. GM and CHr. are the two in dire straights. So why is ford even there? I am sure they have some lie about showing solidarity, but the truth is, it's like .....(do you have kids? I know you do)...Jonny got a cookie, I want one too. Waaa waaaa waaaa...gimme my share...his piece is bigger, boohoo hoo. And thats yet another reason to tell Ford NO, come back when you need it, not just because you want it.
What that also means is that you at and your fellow UAW rank and file have the unique oppertunity to lead the way and and DEMAND the UAW allow you to take steps to save yourself . If the membershio is serious as you you have said, and are willing to take cuts etc....maybe you should mount a STRIKE against your union. Force them to go and offer something to the company. At that point, you will have my support, IF the offer is substancial. But remember, if you guys take a hit, the UNION should back off your dues to say, 1995 levels.That would show the UAW itself was serious too.
But to answer your question ...I say give Ford nothing until they need it. And if the UAW takes the peoper steps, I think you won't need it. IMO.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
22 November 2008 03:01:41
danimal,
Ford is or was ahead of the curve on downsizing
and the plan was going along nicely until this
economic meltdown.
Thats why Ford was in Washington with GM and Chrysler,to get a loan to hold them over until the economy gets going again.
You say maybe me and the membership should strike against the UAW, people can't strike against
themselves!
If there is to be a loan from the government, it's
going to really be different as far as negotiations
go. Before it was between the Company and the Union
it was the old, you show me first vs the no you show me first routine, now with the government involved,
it will be, on the count of three everybody unzip!
There's going to be alot of givebacks or no one survives.
Now to get your support, how much of a substantial
cut would I have to take? keep it in mind, if I have to
take a substantial cut in my wages, so does the maid!
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
22 November 2008 10:27:17
Ok Sgt.
Thats a tough question, because I have a few friends at Ford and because they make that kind of money, they have tried to join the elite and are over their heads in house payments and new cars. So for some strange reason, they have no savings, no retirement plan of their own, and no investments to speak of. So any cut will put them into as bad of shape as the people who defaulted on their loans. Thats tricky. It's also very stupid, to make all that money and spend it all, when I know for a fact that a small familly can live on about $400 less (gross) per week than you make now and still live without "NEEDS". "WANTS" however are a horse of a dif. color.
So there you go, a number. $400 per week. $10 per hour. For, shall we say, 2 years?
Also get rid of the discount auto and truck breaks you get. And perhaps cut your health care back to 70%-30%. That sounds like a good start to me.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
22 November 2008 16:27:30
danimal,
I know of some of the people your talking about, spending money like rock stars, then retire with
nothing to show for it. I ran into a retiree last week with 40 yrs of senority, and He told me he was flat
broke and in debt.
$400 per week $10 per hour, your being unrealistic
no one out at the plant who have mortgages and
kids in school or college will agree to that much of
a paycut. I could absorb a paycut like that, but I
have been careful with the finances and I have a
spouse who as a good career to fall back on.
This family your speaking of, that live on $400 (gross)
a week, how big is this family? are they actually living
on the $400 or are they struggling to get by? do they
even pay taxes?
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
23 November 2008 08:30:59
Sgt Dad,
No no. You misread that. I said $400 less gross per week than you are making now. So if you work a 40 hour week, you gross apx. $1120.00? Now take 400 from that=$720.00 gross. And I know a number of families making due on that. Granted most have a double incomes. And they don't live in 200k houses either, but they due OK.
They say housing should cost you no more than 40% of your income. I say 40% of the principal wage earner. BIG diff. Also, credit cards are for the, IMO, weak minded. They have to have it when? NOW NOW NOW! BS!!!! I owe no one. SAVE and spend. Not spend and hope for the best.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
23 November 2008 09:51:57
OK! I get that part now.
while I won't tell what I gross or net, I don't know what
kind of cut or what to expect. I'm thinking whatever it will be, will be more inline with the transplant's wages. This should start with the top execs taking a paycut.
Credit cards aren't for the weak minded. There should be a law against the weak minded using them though. I use mine all the time, wipe the debt off the books monthly, it's no problem . It's quite convenient, especially when traveling.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
23 November 2008 13:14:45
Sgt.
Ok I should have qualifed that credit card statement. Its the folks that have 2 -3 cards and thousands in debt that are to weak to avoid using them that are the problem.
Yes the top execs should lead the way. But if Ford were to go into bankruptcy, those CEO's and top dog idiots would be the 1st to get the boot. Not a bad idea. But still the fact remains that this bailout is a bailout of the retirement fund, and entitlements. So its actually a bailout of the UAW. Maybe the union should load Ford some cash?
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
23 November 2008 18:34:04
You see, the retirement funds are a problem. In my union, (and I expect many others) the teamsters have entrusted our retirement to a place called CENTRAL STATES. The handle the money. The trouble is, out of greed for themselves, they take the money that our employer pays, in our behalf, and invest it in...guess where? The gamble of the stock market. Because when times are good, they pay out what they have to and reap HUGE profits that the few at the top share. But when the market tanks, they come to us and take back the promisses made and shrink our benifits and raise the age limits.
If I would have been given the money that was paid in my behalf, I would have already been able to retire quite well, thank you. Because I know how and where to invest without the risks (at least less risk). Sure I get a smaller % in return, but I don't lose as much when things go south.
Take the military for example. They put a the money in retirement for someone, and low and behold, when that person retires, its there. Its not gambled away.
The government has made law that requires a retirement fund to be solvent. They have 3 levels. greenyellowand red.
Green means just what you think. Its good to go. Yellow means its close but things need to change. Red means there are huge problems and things need fixed fast.
A few months ago, central states came to town and held a meeting with us. They reported that we were in the RED....but somehow tryed to tell us that red was better than being in the yellow. He said it gave them more potions or some other lie like that.
Hell if red was better, who would ever want to be green. That would be worse I guess.
You can't trust a damn one of those lieing bastards.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
23 November 2008 18:50:02
DANIMAL,
Thought I'd find you here. Left you a message at your profile, but you don't seem to ever check it.
REFORMER'S UNANIMOUS now has a chapter in Lima. (This is the addiction recovery group that I told you has an 80-something percent success rate. Thought you might want to refer some of the people you are trying to help.)
It's at Bluelick Bible Church, which is just off of Cole Street on Bluelick. 419-225-8822, ask for Pastor Moorland. That's all the info. I have. - "Maria"
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows Windows 2000
23 November 2008 22:29:34
Maria...OOpps
You are right, I don't check my messages. Most of them are not NICE!!! LOL
Yes I will look into that. Thanks!
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
24 November 2008 04:35:53
DANIMAL, I like Ford Escort too.
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows Vista
06 March 2009 22:26:57
Ford Mexico...where did that come from?
Using Internet Explorer Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows Windows XP
07 March 2009 06:38:47
 

Allowed BBCode:[b] [i] [u] [s] [color=] [size=] [quote] [code] [email] [img] [youtube]

Comments must be approved before being published.