Johannes Houwink ten Cate wrote:
Dear Sir, the fact that Demjanjuk worked as a guard in Sobibor death camp makes it very likely that he was an accomplice to murder, for mass murder was the only function of this camp. Obviously, you may have studied law but are an ignoramus as far as the Holocaust is concerned. All the best, Johannes Houwink ten Cate, Chair, Dept. of Holocaust and Genocide Studies, University of Amsterdam, The Netherlands.
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19 April 2009 03:46:16
19 April 2009 03:46:16
danimal wrote:
Could this get any simpler? The Jewish state had him, tried him, convicted him of the wrong crime, overturned it, didn't prosicute any further, and freed him. Case closed.
If Isreal didn't find cause, then it should be over. Let the old man die in peace, in the country he came to, to be free. He lived the American dream after he was put through hell in a war in a differant era.
If Isreal didn't find cause, then it should be over. Let the old man die in peace, in the country he came to, to be free. He lived the American dream after he was put through hell in a war in a differant era.
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19 April 2009 04:08:33
19 April 2009 04:08:33
Lucente wrote:
Dr. ten Cate,
Wow, call someone an ignoramus because they disagree with your position? I can tell your classroom is not one for debate.
I, in fact, have a history degree and am somewhat knowledgable of the Holocaust. While I am not an expert on the subject, as you clearly are, I can still speak intelligently on the matter.
Your position, however, is suspect, given your involvement in the prosecution of Mr. Demjanjuk with that group of Dutch Jews wanting to join the prosecution. And your advocation of outlawing Holocaust denial is despicable to say the least.
However, I find it odd that you speak out against war crimes tribunals using joint criminal enterprise theory to convict people, yet that is what you are advocating here. Mr. Demjanjuk was a guard at the prison so therefore he must be guilty of crimes.
You probably know more about Mr. Demjanjuk's movements before leaving Europe than anyone (I would be interested in reading your study on that, by the way), and yet I doubt you have found any evidence that he committed crimes.
In the end, I am not sure how the criminal justice system works in the Netherlands, but here in the United States, we find it repugnant to keep shipping our citizens to other countries until we find one that can actually secure a conviction. The Israelis tried him and acquitted him. Case closed. Besides, the evidence against him is scant and suspect.
Finally, what can we possibly accomplish by putting an 89-year-old man on trial (if he even survives the trip to Germany and the trial, which is doubtful)? You want to publicize Sobibor and that is good. However, I don't think it fair to do it at the expense of an old man with very little evidence.
~tjl~
Wow, call someone an ignoramus because they disagree with your position? I can tell your classroom is not one for debate.
I, in fact, have a history degree and am somewhat knowledgable of the Holocaust. While I am not an expert on the subject, as you clearly are, I can still speak intelligently on the matter.
Your position, however, is suspect, given your involvement in the prosecution of Mr. Demjanjuk with that group of Dutch Jews wanting to join the prosecution. And your advocation of outlawing Holocaust denial is despicable to say the least.
However, I find it odd that you speak out against war crimes tribunals using joint criminal enterprise theory to convict people, yet that is what you are advocating here. Mr. Demjanjuk was a guard at the prison so therefore he must be guilty of crimes.
You probably know more about Mr. Demjanjuk's movements before leaving Europe than anyone (I would be interested in reading your study on that, by the way), and yet I doubt you have found any evidence that he committed crimes.
In the end, I am not sure how the criminal justice system works in the Netherlands, but here in the United States, we find it repugnant to keep shipping our citizens to other countries until we find one that can actually secure a conviction. The Israelis tried him and acquitted him. Case closed. Besides, the evidence against him is scant and suspect.
Finally, what can we possibly accomplish by putting an 89-year-old man on trial (if he even survives the trip to Germany and the trial, which is doubtful)? You want to publicize Sobibor and that is good. However, I don't think it fair to do it at the expense of an old man with very little evidence.
~tjl~
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19 April 2009 12:46:24
19 April 2009 12:46:24
HappyG wrote:
Even if Demjanjuk did aid in killing all those people, at age 89, and dying of cancer, and a huge assortment of other ailments, what is the point? He is suffering, already. A trip would kill him. Maybe that is all they want. A long trial without his chemo is a murder sentence. Then, what if he is found not guilty again? He won't be able to come home, because he will be too frail. In the meantime, if he falls even more ill, he will be put in a German nursing home, never to see his family again. If he did do the crimes he is accused of, at this late date, God will sort it out. The Israelis wanted him big time, but there wasn't the evidence. What is the new evidence? Or is this a case of anyone who was a guard is to be tried? How ironic it would be to give him a life sentence, when his life is, for all intents and purposes, over. He won't suffer anymore than he already has, and most likely has some dementia, so won't be able to defend himself. They might as well put him on trial over there, and leave him here. The only ones to suffer from what happens to him are his family. In this case, the hunter is as morally wrong as the hunted.
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19 April 2009 18:19:46
19 April 2009 18:19:46
Scant wrote:
This is getting so old, let it go for petes sake. I agree with Tom. The evidence is weak, even he did do those things he will answer to a power much higher and just than we.
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19 April 2009 18:34:32
19 April 2009 18:34:32
danimal wrote:
SCANT!!! Where the heck you been old man?
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19 April 2009 20:17:12
19 April 2009 20:17:12
HappyG wrote:
I doubt the old man knows where he is at. If he got away with murder, it's too late now to do anything but write about it. But, only his family can be hurt at this point.
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20 April 2009 13:47:28
20 April 2009 13:47:28






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[COLUMN] Time to leave Demjanjuk's fate to Providence
John Demjanjuk, third from right, is taken from his home in Seven Hills, Ohio by immigration agents as his granddaughter, Olivia Nishnic, looks on, Tuesday, April 14, 2009. (AP Photo/Jason Miller)
It's time to leave Ivan "John" Demjanjuk alone.
Rule of law and a sense of justice are crucial elements in any free society.
Free human beings, after all, have the God-given natural right to defend themselves from those who would do them harm. To that end, we have collectively allowed the government to establish a judicial system to punish those who violate the rights of others.
However, there is another side of justice and that is protecting the rights of the accused, regardless of how despicable the crime. Here in the United States we have various protections in place, including laws against double jeopardy.
Enter Demjanjuk, a Ukrainian native who came to the United States in 1952 and became a citizen six years later.
Demjanjuk began World War II as a soldier in the Soviet Union's Red Army when he was captured by Germans in 1942. The belief is that he either volunteered or was conscripted as a prison guard and committed crimes at Nazi death camps.
Demjanjuk said he was imprisoned in a camp in Poland until 1944, and then transferred to another camp in Austria. In 1945, he joined an anti-Soviet Russian military unit funded by the Nazis.
Now, 64 years after the war ended, the German government, in a particularly ridiculous move, has charged Demjanjuk with more than 29,000 counts of accessory to murder.
Can the German government prove that Demjanjuk had a direct role in the deaths of more than 29,000 other human beings more than six decades ago during the fog of war?
Of course not.
In reality, Demjanjuk is just another victim of this fixation we have with punishing Nazis and the overzealousness of a German prosecutor/Nazi hunter, Kurt Schrimm, who cares more about his political future than the well-being of a frail 89-year-old autoworker in Cleveland.
The time for punishing those responsible for the Holocaust has long passed. We can no longer ensure a fair trial for those responsible. Subjecting Demjanjuk to a criminal proceeding more than six decades after the offenses is unfair given his age and the near impossibility of obtaining exculpatory documents and witnesses, or even of remembering the events under investigation.
This is pertinent in this case because there are serious doubts as to Demjanjuk's guilt.
The world had its shot at Demjanjuk more than two decades ago and he prevailed. In 1988, a court in Israel sentenced Demjanjuk to death by hanging after a trial accusing him of being the notorious guard Ivan the Terrible, who operated the diesel engines sending gas to the death chamber. Demjanjuk spent more than five years on death row there.
In 1993, the Israeli supreme court overturned the verdict when evidence surfaced that he was not Ivan the Terrible. In its opinion, the court said Demjanjuk, while not Ivan the Terrible, was probably a guard at the Trawniki unit and at Sobibor and other camps.
A few months later, after petitions were filed to retry Demjanjuk for crimes committed at those camps, the court rejected that idea for several reasons, including its belief that a conviction on the new charges would be unlikely, meaning there was little real evidence that he committed any crimes.
Of course, Demjanjuk's ordeal was not over. The United States, after reinstating his citizenship, immediately began proceedings to revoke his citizenship and have him deported.
The evidence used came from records found in Soviet archives and German documents. The most damning is a certificate from Trawniki that carried his information and said he also was posted at Sobibor and two other camps.
Still, even if he were a guard at those camps, that is not evidence he committed any crimes, let alone participated in the murder of 29,000 Jews.
If Israel decided 15 years ago that there was not enough evidence he committed crimes, why should we believe the Germans have suddenly developed such evidence?
Besides, the architects of the Holocaust are dead. It really makes no sense to go after low-level guards who were mere children when the tragic events occurred.
As the Israeli supreme court said in 1993, "The matter is closed, but not complete; the complete truth is not the prerogative of the human judge."
category | Column
author | Lucente